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<blockquote data-quote="Sunseeker" data-source="post: 7718874"><p>The way you dance around the issue amuses me. I'd hardly call playing a pedophile a "challenging character" and I'm really not even sure why <em>you</em> would attempt to frame it as such. If the goal is to <em>not</em> do bad things when your brain is giving you bad impulses that's one thing. </p><p></p><p>Who mentioned crimes? You've taken an awfully large leap in logic from what I wrote, which can be summed up as encouraging people to analyze the inclusion of sensitive content as relevant and valuable to the setting as opposed to being there merely for shock value, to suggesting I am playing thought police.</p><p></p><p>Now, I don't know about you, but I've played lots of "gritty", "dark" and "horror" games and enjoy reading gritty, dark and horror material (when it isn't campy), but I'd raise an eyebrow at any player who wanted to play a character who had an attraction to minors, or an inclination to rape the dead (or living, or living dead). RPGs may be a place to let our imaginations run wild, to try things we never could in real life but that doesn't mean that everything is okay. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>'</p><p>Yes, that was exactly my point, and the problem. Perhaps you were unclear on what I wrote? People are using a "convenient descriptor" to justify the inclusion of shocking and sensitive subjects, without providing any real value to their inclusion. </p><p></p><p></p><p>My copy of Dracula is sitting on the shelf directly behind my desk. To my recollection, Dracula himself never fed on any minors, though Lucy did, which was included not because feeding on children is enticing or shocking, but more as a demonstration that even in death the strongest desires of the living get played out even in death. There was a <em>reason</em> for the inclusion of feeding on children, which while it may have been shocking that someone would harm a child it was A: not sexual and B: supported by the story. It was NOT mere shock value.</p><p></p><p></p><p>You're welcome to go off on some wild rant about sparkly vampires, but kindly do it somewhere else, since I neither mentioned them, nor implied anything about them. You just <em>assumed/I] that because I disagreed with the inclusion of shocking material for shock's sake, that I must be a fan of "sanitized" material.</em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>This isn't an argument. It is first and foremost, not how real life functions and if games intending to deal with real life issued (such as terrorism, ISIS and islamism) do not model real life in their approach to a subject, they come off as insulting to the reader, demeaning to the subject and displays a degree of crass arrogance towards well, pretty much everything that it astounds me that it can be defended. Writers, artists, even players should always be challenged on why they included any given sensitive element in their creation. It doesn't have to be a 40-page essay justifying the inclusion, but some demonstration that the element is not just there to shock and disturb can go a long way. And I'll further argue that providing a justification for the inclusion that is fitting with the setting material can <strong>enhance</strong> the shocking and disturbing element, rather than <em>devaluing</em> it by having no reason.</em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>So, I'll repeat since my message is apparently unclear: If your argument for the inclusion of an element is "because it's dark" then you don't have an argument.</em></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Sunseeker, post: 7718874"] The way you dance around the issue amuses me. I'd hardly call playing a pedophile a "challenging character" and I'm really not even sure why [I]you[/I] would attempt to frame it as such. If the goal is to [I]not[/I] do bad things when your brain is giving you bad impulses that's one thing. Who mentioned crimes? You've taken an awfully large leap in logic from what I wrote, which can be summed up as encouraging people to analyze the inclusion of sensitive content as relevant and valuable to the setting as opposed to being there merely for shock value, to suggesting I am playing thought police. Now, I don't know about you, but I've played lots of "gritty", "dark" and "horror" games and enjoy reading gritty, dark and horror material (when it isn't campy), but I'd raise an eyebrow at any player who wanted to play a character who had an attraction to minors, or an inclination to rape the dead (or living, or living dead). RPGs may be a place to let our imaginations run wild, to try things we never could in real life but that doesn't mean that everything is okay. ' Yes, that was exactly my point, and the problem. Perhaps you were unclear on what I wrote? People are using a "convenient descriptor" to justify the inclusion of shocking and sensitive subjects, without providing any real value to their inclusion. My copy of Dracula is sitting on the shelf directly behind my desk. To my recollection, Dracula himself never fed on any minors, though Lucy did, which was included not because feeding on children is enticing or shocking, but more as a demonstration that even in death the strongest desires of the living get played out even in death. There was a [I]reason[/I] for the inclusion of feeding on children, which while it may have been shocking that someone would harm a child it was A: not sexual and B: supported by the story. It was NOT mere shock value. You're welcome to go off on some wild rant about sparkly vampires, but kindly do it somewhere else, since I neither mentioned them, nor implied anything about them. You just [I]assumed/I] that because I disagreed with the inclusion of shocking material for shock's sake, that I must be a fan of "sanitized" material. This isn't an argument. It is first and foremost, not how real life functions and if games intending to deal with real life issued (such as terrorism, ISIS and islamism) do not model real life in their approach to a subject, they come off as insulting to the reader, demeaning to the subject and displays a degree of crass arrogance towards well, pretty much everything that it astounds me that it can be defended. Writers, artists, even players should always be challenged on why they included any given sensitive element in their creation. It doesn't have to be a 40-page essay justifying the inclusion, but some demonstration that the element is not just there to shock and disturb can go a long way. And I'll further argue that providing a justification for the inclusion that is fitting with the setting material can [B]enhance[/B] the shocking and disturbing element, rather than [I]devaluing[/I] it by having no reason. So, I'll repeat since my message is apparently unclear: If your argument for the inclusion of an element is "because it's dark" then you don't have an argument.[/I] [/QUOTE]
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