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Warden L6 Utility "Bears Endurance"
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<blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 5724431" data-attributes="member: 2011"><p>The flaw in your logic is that you are allowing the damage to be applied. The best way I can explain it is:</p><p></p><p>How does one determine the trigger?</p><p></p><p>How does one determine if a PC is hit?</p><p>How does one determine if a PC drops below 0 hit points?</p><p></p><p>One determines to hit by adding a dice roll to a bonus and determining if it hits a defense. The immediate interrupt interrupts that calculation, modifies the defense and may or may not prevent the hit. The trigger is not resolved until after the immediate interrupt is resolved.</p><p></p><p>One determines drop to 0 by subtracting damage from hit points and determining if the result is 0 or lower. The immediate interrupt interrupts that calculation, modifies the current hit points and may or may not prevent the PC from dropping below 0. The trigger is not resolved until after the immediate interrupt is resolved.</p><p></p><p></p><p>One cannot modify the calculation to determine the trigger in the one case and not do so in the other case and conclude that one is following the same rules in both cases.</p><p></p><p>One cannot apply the effect of the interrupt before re-calculating the trigger in one case, and not re-calculate the trigger by applying the effect of the interrupt after the trigger in the other case, and conclude that one is following the same rules in both cases.</p><p></p><p></p><p>You cannot apply the effects before the trigger resolves in one case and after the trigger resolves in the other. The rules don't work that way.</p><p></p><p></p><p>The only difference between these two cases (Shield and Bear's Endurance) is that negating to hit means that the target is not hit at all and negating dropping to 0 means that the PC still takes the damage, he just gets healed first before doing so (before resolving the trigger).</p><p></p><p>In the teleport case, the target is no longer next to the attack either before to hit is calculated (with the one power) or before damage is calculated (with the other power). Again, the action is negated because the immediate interrupt rules indicate that the action can no longer occur (i.e. out of range). It doesn't matter which portion of the action is interrupted. It's all one action and the PC is no longer in range. The entire action is interrupted, not just one tiny portion of it when the effect negates a portion of an action.</p><p></p><p>Take a Wilden Destroyer attacking with his Greatclub a PC Wizard who has Shield. The Wizard uses Shield and negates the to hit.</p><p></p><p>The Wizard is still marked by the effect of the club attack. Unlike the teleport case where the attack action is totally negated and the wizard would not be marked, in this case, the effect which is not linked to the "to hit" is not prevented because the attack was not prevented. The attack still occurs, the PC is missed, but the PC is still marked. In one case, the action is not negated, just the to hit. In the other case, the entire action is negated.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="KarinsDad, post: 5724431, member: 2011"] The flaw in your logic is that you are allowing the damage to be applied. The best way I can explain it is: How does one determine the trigger? How does one determine if a PC is hit? How does one determine if a PC drops below 0 hit points? One determines to hit by adding a dice roll to a bonus and determining if it hits a defense. The immediate interrupt interrupts that calculation, modifies the defense and may or may not prevent the hit. The trigger is not resolved until after the immediate interrupt is resolved. One determines drop to 0 by subtracting damage from hit points and determining if the result is 0 or lower. The immediate interrupt interrupts that calculation, modifies the current hit points and may or may not prevent the PC from dropping below 0. The trigger is not resolved until after the immediate interrupt is resolved. One cannot modify the calculation to determine the trigger in the one case and not do so in the other case and conclude that one is following the same rules in both cases. One cannot apply the effect of the interrupt before re-calculating the trigger in one case, and not re-calculate the trigger by applying the effect of the interrupt after the trigger in the other case, and conclude that one is following the same rules in both cases. You cannot apply the effects before the trigger resolves in one case and after the trigger resolves in the other. The rules don't work that way. The only difference between these two cases (Shield and Bear's Endurance) is that negating to hit means that the target is not hit at all and negating dropping to 0 means that the PC still takes the damage, he just gets healed first before doing so (before resolving the trigger). In the teleport case, the target is no longer next to the attack either before to hit is calculated (with the one power) or before damage is calculated (with the other power). Again, the action is negated because the immediate interrupt rules indicate that the action can no longer occur (i.e. out of range). It doesn't matter which portion of the action is interrupted. It's all one action and the PC is no longer in range. The entire action is interrupted, not just one tiny portion of it when the effect negates a portion of an action. Take a Wilden Destroyer attacking with his Greatclub a PC Wizard who has Shield. The Wizard uses Shield and negates the to hit. The Wizard is still marked by the effect of the club attack. Unlike the teleport case where the attack action is totally negated and the wizard would not be marked, in this case, the effect which is not linked to the "to hit" is not prevented because the attack was not prevented. The attack still occurs, the PC is missed, but the PC is still marked. In one case, the action is not negated, just the to hit. In the other case, the entire action is negated. [/QUOTE]
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Warden L6 Utility "Bears Endurance"
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