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<blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 9231190" data-attributes="member: 6790260"><p>This just says to me that 5e lacks for a proper psionic class, not that these things are best represented by Warlocks. Morden certainly does act like both a Warlock and a patron (or, at least, the representative thereof), but it's telling to me that you feel he needs to be Fiend, not Great Old One.</p><p></p><p>I certainly agree that B5 has a different cosmology, but the Vorlons, Shadows, and other First Ones act like very powerful Outsiders in D&D terms, not like Cthulhu. The two main groups act like LN angels (with Kosh Naranek being the rare LG one) and CE demons; the rest act like territorial TNs that just want to be left alone. They can be goaded by ordinary deceptions (the fiery ones Ivanova tricked into coming to Coriana VI), they know quite well who and what the "younger races" are and what we generally care about (they just mostly think we are feeble and greedy and a danger to ourselves and others...which isn't entirely wrong). When you finally corner one and get them to answer questions or talk to you, they're quite similar to actual people, with clear and definable beliefs ("It's about <em>ideology!</em>" "Of course. What <em>isn't?</em> Order versus chaos: choose one.") Far from being ignorant or apathetic about us mortals, both the Vorlons and Shadows are deeply invested in getting us to be more like them, take their side, see them as good and desirable. The Vorlons work comparatively openly, imprinting religious symbolism onto various races (at least humans, Narn, Minbari, Centauri, and Drazi) to present themselves as beings of light and goodness and the Shadows as dangerous creatures of darkness and evil. The Shadows work covertly, giving gifts, manipulating, hiding secrets on dozens of worlds, planting seeds that may not grow for ten thousand years or more.</p><p></p><p>Both of them certainly act like patrons. I just don't see the <em>eldritch horror</em> angle to either of them, the "it is so far beyond us we are barely amoeboid to it" angle, the apathy, the incomprehensible and possibly even undefinable beliefs or reality-breaking nature (e.g. non-Euclidean geometries). The closest the show ever got to that was the Thirdspace "anti-life" aliens, who (notably) were powerful enough to mind-control even Vorlons, and who were presented as genuinely pretty incomprehensible to any living being of our universe, including those very Vorlons.</p><p></p><p>Lyta probably is best represented by a Great Old One Warlock, but only because that's the only strongly psionic Warlock pact. In all honesty, I don't know if she can really be captured properly by <em>any</em> D&D class, because she is a special creation, something unique left behind as a safety mechanism. She is the kind of thing that would be a potentially dangerous ally NPC, not a player character—and if she <em>were</em> someone's PC, I would expect some <em>heavy</em> homebrew to make her work correctly.</p><p></p><p>For my part, Bester always struck me as a dark wizard, not a warlock. But that may be more because I see him as pretty terrible at manipulating others with charisma (he mostly just makes them hate him <em>more</em>), but really good at fooling or out-planning them, up until the point that his allies (like Clark, or the Shadows) fail him and thus leave him exposed.</p><p></p><p>I can see how JMS would find <em>aesthetic</em> inspiration in the Cthulhu mythos for the First Ones, and how that could be part of his efforts to keep them mysterious until near the end of Season 3, when the Shadow War comes to a head. The Shadows in particular fit well with the "when the stars are right, we will return" concept. But once the wool is pulled from our eyes and we get to see what the First Ones are actually like, they aren't even vaguely Cthulhu-like anymore, neither in behavior nor in thought. Authorial intent may have been to keep them there, but they behave and think in far too many grounded, even "human" (relatively speaking), ways to be like Cthulhu or his brethren.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="EzekielRaiden, post: 9231190, member: 6790260"] This just says to me that 5e lacks for a proper psionic class, not that these things are best represented by Warlocks. Morden certainly does act like both a Warlock and a patron (or, at least, the representative thereof), but it's telling to me that you feel he needs to be Fiend, not Great Old One. I certainly agree that B5 has a different cosmology, but the Vorlons, Shadows, and other First Ones act like very powerful Outsiders in D&D terms, not like Cthulhu. The two main groups act like LN angels (with Kosh Naranek being the rare LG one) and CE demons; the rest act like territorial TNs that just want to be left alone. They can be goaded by ordinary deceptions (the fiery ones Ivanova tricked into coming to Coriana VI), they know quite well who and what the "younger races" are and what we generally care about (they just mostly think we are feeble and greedy and a danger to ourselves and others...which isn't entirely wrong). When you finally corner one and get them to answer questions or talk to you, they're quite similar to actual people, with clear and definable beliefs ("It's about [I]ideology![/I]" "Of course. What [I]isn't?[/I] Order versus chaos: choose one.") Far from being ignorant or apathetic about us mortals, both the Vorlons and Shadows are deeply invested in getting us to be more like them, take their side, see them as good and desirable. The Vorlons work comparatively openly, imprinting religious symbolism onto various races (at least humans, Narn, Minbari, Centauri, and Drazi) to present themselves as beings of light and goodness and the Shadows as dangerous creatures of darkness and evil. The Shadows work covertly, giving gifts, manipulating, hiding secrets on dozens of worlds, planting seeds that may not grow for ten thousand years or more. Both of them certainly act like patrons. I just don't see the [I]eldritch horror[/I] angle to either of them, the "it is so far beyond us we are barely amoeboid to it" angle, the apathy, the incomprehensible and possibly even undefinable beliefs or reality-breaking nature (e.g. non-Euclidean geometries). The closest the show ever got to that was the Thirdspace "anti-life" aliens, who (notably) were powerful enough to mind-control even Vorlons, and who were presented as genuinely pretty incomprehensible to any living being of our universe, including those very Vorlons. Lyta probably is best represented by a Great Old One Warlock, but only because that's the only strongly psionic Warlock pact. In all honesty, I don't know if she can really be captured properly by [I]any[/I] D&D class, because she is a special creation, something unique left behind as a safety mechanism. She is the kind of thing that would be a potentially dangerous ally NPC, not a player character—and if she [I]were[/I] someone's PC, I would expect some [I]heavy[/I] homebrew to make her work correctly. For my part, Bester always struck me as a dark wizard, not a warlock. But that may be more because I see him as pretty terrible at manipulating others with charisma (he mostly just makes them hate him [I]more[/I]), but really good at fooling or out-planning them, up until the point that his allies (like Clark, or the Shadows) fail him and thus leave him exposed. I can see how JMS would find [I]aesthetic[/I] inspiration in the Cthulhu mythos for the First Ones, and how that could be part of his efforts to keep them mysterious until near the end of Season 3, when the Shadow War comes to a head. The Shadows in particular fit well with the "when the stars are right, we will return" concept. But once the wool is pulled from our eyes and we get to see what the First Ones are actually like, they aren't even vaguely Cthulhu-like anymore, neither in behavior nor in thought. Authorial intent may have been to keep them there, but they behave and think in far too many grounded, even "human" (relatively speaking), ways to be like Cthulhu or his brethren. [/QUOTE]
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