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<blockquote data-quote="Sword of Spirit" data-source="post: 7299924" data-attributes="member: 6677017"><p>I was thinking the same thing until I noticed that there seems to be a trend that the spells that require a spell slot are the ones that actually scale with level, while the ones that don't don't. I haven't verified that that is true in all cases, but if it is it would explain the logic behind it. Still not sure I like 1/day invocations that also use up a spell slot, but at least there is some benefit.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Since I've been doing math today, I accept the challenge! It would probably help a lot of people actually see the numbers here anyway, so I'll do my best.</p><p></p><p>[NOTE: There is an error on the 5th level Bladelock row. The values should be the same as the 6th level row.</p><p></p><p>[ATTACH]91960[/ATTACH]</p><p></p><p>(Note that you will not be able to get both <em>hex</em> and Hexblade’s Curse activated on a new target at once until 14th level. Also, Hexblade’s Curse is once per short rest, so it can’t be assumed as ubiquitously as <em>hex</em> can. However, since I’m comparing the same feature on <em>eldritch blast</em> and a weapon, you can still use these numbers to see how much more <em>eldritch blast</em> benefits from it.)</p><p></p><p>I'm comparing a warlock (any patron, any boon) who uses <em>eldritch blast</em> plus Agonizing Blast, and <em>hex</em> with three other warlocks: a Hexblade who uses the same attacks (ie, <em>eldritch blast)</em>, a Pact of the Blade warlock who is not a Hexblade, and a Pact of the Blade warlock who is.</p><p></p><p>As should be evident by the numbers, an <em>eldritch blast</em> wielding warlock benefits from, well, pretty much everything, more than a weapon wielding one does. It's the fact that they get multiple <em>attacks</em> with <em>eldritch blast</em> rather than just scaling damage dice as with other cantrips, and then benefit from features (<em>hex</em>, Agonizing Blast, and Hexblade's Curse) that apply to each <em>attack</em> that causes all the problems for weapon wielders, because they don't get that third and fourth attack that <em>eldritch blast</em> does.</p><p></p><p>Now, aside from a blip at 5th level, you'll see that weapon wielders actually do better than <em>eldritch blast</em> wielders before level 11. So what's all the complaining about if it's just a little bit of high level imbalance, one might ask? Well, first, it's not a little bit, it's <strong>a lot</strong> of high level imbalance. Look at those level 17+ numbers for a Blaster who took the Hexblade pact just to buff his <em>eldritch blast</em>, compared to the Pact of the Blade dedicated weapon wielding Hexblade. <strong><em>80</em></strong> damage versus <strong><em>53</em></strong>? <strong><em>66</em></strong> versus <strong><em>46</em></strong>? I mean, that's crazy.</p><p></p><p>Second, look at the difference in investment required. Hexblade patron replaces the Strength investment, which is great; no denying that. But you still have pair that specific pact with a specific patron and two invocations, whereas the <em>eldritch blaster</em> can be any pact or patron they want, and only needs to take Agonizing Blast and <em>eldritch blast</em>(and I expect most weapon wielding warlocks will snag <em>eldritch blast</em> too because it is an excellent ranged option for minimal investment (especially since they already have <em>hex</em>).</p><p></p><p>But of course, that all only applies if the <em>eldritch blast</em>er decides to take Hexblade, right? Wrong. The highest numbers only kick in then, but look at the comparison between a standard <em>eldritch blast</em>er and a dedicated greatsword Hexblade. Finally, they can more or less keep up! ... well, as long as they have their Curse up on an opponent that is. Otherwise they are just using the same columns as the non Hexblade Bladelock is.</p><p></p><p>By the way, did you notice that the Hexblade's backup <em>eldritch blast</em> (without any Agonizing Blast nonsense) still does 60 damage compared to 53 from his weapon? Well, at least you can probably get a magic weapon.</p><p></p><p>In case anyone was wondering about the expanded crit range, it only adds 1 (or 2 at high levels for your Eldritch Blaster who took Hexblade patron--must he steal <em>all</em> our fun?) additional points of damage beyond what a normal crit would. It is fun though.</p><p></p><p>It's just straight up problematic design.</p><p></p><p>Before anyone says "it's not all about damage" (though it's unlikely someone has read this far if that's something they are thinking of saying), the point isn't about whether you should care about damage or not. The point is that if you <em>do</em> care about damage, the rules ought to mechanically work the way the fluff implies to let you actually do as well with your weapon as not, instead of requiring you to sell your arm and your leg along with your soul for mediocre results.</p><p></p><p>There are house rules that can make it tolerable, though they never make it "right." Making Hexblade's Curse only add to damage and crit range on attacks with a weapon eliminates that entire crazy "Hexblast Fun" box in chart. As long as you don't care about the super investment required, that's enough to work. If you'd like Bladelocks that aren't Hexblades to have a chance to keep up with <em>eldritch blasters</em>, a house rule I use is to add in the effect of an Eldritch Knights War Magic to the Thirsting Blade invocation. That extra damage can help them keep up, and they can stick with a Dex weapon so they don't destroy their AC as a lightly armored Str+Cha character. Other, less minimalist fixes might include taking away some of the features of Hexblade and sticking them into the Pact of the Blade instead.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Sword of Spirit, post: 7299924, member: 6677017"] I was thinking the same thing until I noticed that there seems to be a trend that the spells that require a spell slot are the ones that actually scale with level, while the ones that don't don't. I haven't verified that that is true in all cases, but if it is it would explain the logic behind it. Still not sure I like 1/day invocations that also use up a spell slot, but at least there is some benefit. Since I've been doing math today, I accept the challenge! It would probably help a lot of people actually see the numbers here anyway, so I'll do my best. [NOTE: There is an error on the 5th level Bladelock row. The values should be the same as the 6th level row. [ATTACH=CONFIG]91960._xfImport[/ATTACH] (Note that you will not be able to get both [I]hex[/I] and Hexblade’s Curse activated on a new target at once until 14th level. Also, Hexblade’s Curse is once per short rest, so it can’t be assumed as ubiquitously as [I]hex[/I] can. However, since I’m comparing the same feature on [I]eldritch blast[/I] and a weapon, you can still use these numbers to see how much more [I]eldritch blast[/I] benefits from it.) I'm comparing a warlock (any patron, any boon) who uses [I]eldritch blast[/I] plus Agonizing Blast, and [I]hex[/I] with three other warlocks: a Hexblade who uses the same attacks (ie, [I]eldritch blast)[/I], a Pact of the Blade warlock who is not a Hexblade, and a Pact of the Blade warlock who is. As should be evident by the numbers, an [I]eldritch blast[/I] wielding warlock benefits from, well, pretty much everything, more than a weapon wielding one does. It's the fact that they get multiple [I]attacks[/I] with [I]eldritch blast[/I] rather than just scaling damage dice as with other cantrips, and then benefit from features ([I]hex[/I], Agonizing Blast, and Hexblade's Curse) that apply to each [I]attack[/I] that causes all the problems for weapon wielders, because they don't get that third and fourth attack that [I]eldritch blast[/I] does. Now, aside from a blip at 5th level, you'll see that weapon wielders actually do better than [I]eldritch blast[/I] wielders before level 11. So what's all the complaining about if it's just a little bit of high level imbalance, one might ask? Well, first, it's not a little bit, it's [B]a lot[/B] of high level imbalance. Look at those level 17+ numbers for a Blaster who took the Hexblade pact just to buff his [I]eldritch blast[/I], compared to the Pact of the Blade dedicated weapon wielding Hexblade. [B][I]80[/I][/B] damage versus [B][I]53[/I][/B]? [B][I]66[/I][/B] versus [B][I]46[/I][/B]? I mean, that's crazy. Second, look at the difference in investment required. Hexblade patron replaces the Strength investment, which is great; no denying that. But you still have pair that specific pact with a specific patron and two invocations, whereas the [I]eldritch blaster[/I] can be any pact or patron they want, and only needs to take Agonizing Blast and [I]eldritch blast[/I](and I expect most weapon wielding warlocks will snag [I]eldritch blast[/I] too because it is an excellent ranged option for minimal investment (especially since they already have [I]hex[/I]). But of course, that all only applies if the [I]eldritch blast[/I]er decides to take Hexblade, right? Wrong. The highest numbers only kick in then, but look at the comparison between a standard [I]eldritch blast[/I]er and a dedicated greatsword Hexblade. Finally, they can more or less keep up! ... well, as long as they have their Curse up on an opponent that is. Otherwise they are just using the same columns as the non Hexblade Bladelock is. By the way, did you notice that the Hexblade's backup [I]eldritch blast[/I] (without any Agonizing Blast nonsense) still does 60 damage compared to 53 from his weapon? Well, at least you can probably get a magic weapon. In case anyone was wondering about the expanded crit range, it only adds 1 (or 2 at high levels for your Eldritch Blaster who took Hexblade patron--must he steal [I]all[/I] our fun?) additional points of damage beyond what a normal crit would. It is fun though. It's just straight up problematic design. Before anyone says "it's not all about damage" (though it's unlikely someone has read this far if that's something they are thinking of saying), the point isn't about whether you should care about damage or not. The point is that if you [I]do[/I] care about damage, the rules ought to mechanically work the way the fluff implies to let you actually do as well with your weapon as not, instead of requiring you to sell your arm and your leg along with your soul for mediocre results. There are house rules that can make it tolerable, though they never make it "right." Making Hexblade's Curse only add to damage and crit range on attacks with a weapon eliminates that entire crazy "Hexblast Fun" box in chart. As long as you don't care about the super investment required, that's enough to work. If you'd like Bladelocks that aren't Hexblades to have a chance to keep up with [I]eldritch blasters[/I], a house rule I use is to add in the effect of an Eldritch Knights War Magic to the Thirsting Blade invocation. That extra damage can help them keep up, and they can stick with a Dex weapon so they don't destroy their AC as a lightly armored Str+Cha character. Other, less minimalist fixes might include taking away some of the features of Hexblade and sticking them into the Pact of the Blade instead. [/QUOTE]
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