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Warlord as a Fighter option; Assassin as a Rogue option
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<blockquote data-quote="I'm A Banana" data-source="post: 6046859" data-attributes="member: 2067"><p>This conflates two things that are very different in actual practice. Mike Tyson couldn't plan a military ambush, and I doubt Napoleon was an excellent boxer. </p><p></p><p>So they probably need different rules to model them.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Forcing an action is magic. That's what gets you to move 5 feet against your will.</p><p></p><p>Playing a trick is mundane. That might also make you move 5 feet, but it's not against your will, it's going to rely on you choosing to do it. That choice is important -- it shouldn't be glossed over. </p><p></p><p>Which is why the 4e marking mechanic versus the late 3e attempt to duplicate the effect was an example I used as an improvement. It's not magical, because it allows for that choice. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That's a little beyond this scope, but it should be noted that the team has been pretty clear about comparing non-combat spells to what similar ability checks can do. A Charisma check should be able to change someone's mind. The "charmed" condition is currently pretty specifically magical (it forbids certain actions outright), but an earlier iteration was less so (just giving advantage on interaction checks). Charmed as a specific condition might be exclusively magical, but there's no reason that a Friendly attitude wouldn't have basically the same effects. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>They're not meant to be -- the recommended specialty isn't inherent to the class. The herbal poultices are evocative of someone who knows how to heal people's wounds.</p><p></p><p>The dodges, parries, and defense-buffs are what's evocative of a charismatic commander telling you to "ACT NOW!" and giving you the chance to do something you couldn't otherwise do. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That's exactly what the Inspiring Words ability in the first post can model: you'd be dead now if it wasn't for your leader's words.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't think that's true. People have played leader-oriented characters even with absolutely shoddy support from OD&D on up, metagame mechanics or no. They've played them with pure DM fiat, they've played them off the grid, they've played them as fighters, as paladins, as barbarians, as cavaliers. They've played them when the only support is "I attract followers," they've played them when the only support is, "If you have a high Cha and a lenient DM" The concept of the archetype in fiction doesn't depend on those metagame mechanics. </p><p></p><p>They're useful, sure. Calling it the "heart" of the warlord seems... unnecessarily restrictive to me. </p><p></p><p>But that's sort of more of a personal thing, a note that it has to be a dial to turn. </p><p></p><p>Even if you ditched that requirement, and went full metagame, I believe the Expertise Dice system could totally accommodate that. That was sort of the thrust of this thought experiment.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="I'm A Banana, post: 6046859, member: 2067"] This conflates two things that are very different in actual practice. Mike Tyson couldn't plan a military ambush, and I doubt Napoleon was an excellent boxer. So they probably need different rules to model them. Forcing an action is magic. That's what gets you to move 5 feet against your will. Playing a trick is mundane. That might also make you move 5 feet, but it's not against your will, it's going to rely on you choosing to do it. That choice is important -- it shouldn't be glossed over. Which is why the 4e marking mechanic versus the late 3e attempt to duplicate the effect was an example I used as an improvement. It's not magical, because it allows for that choice. That's a little beyond this scope, but it should be noted that the team has been pretty clear about comparing non-combat spells to what similar ability checks can do. A Charisma check should be able to change someone's mind. The "charmed" condition is currently pretty specifically magical (it forbids certain actions outright), but an earlier iteration was less so (just giving advantage on interaction checks). Charmed as a specific condition might be exclusively magical, but there's no reason that a Friendly attitude wouldn't have basically the same effects. They're not meant to be -- the recommended specialty isn't inherent to the class. The herbal poultices are evocative of someone who knows how to heal people's wounds. The dodges, parries, and defense-buffs are what's evocative of a charismatic commander telling you to "ACT NOW!" and giving you the chance to do something you couldn't otherwise do. That's exactly what the Inspiring Words ability in the first post can model: you'd be dead now if it wasn't for your leader's words. I don't think that's true. People have played leader-oriented characters even with absolutely shoddy support from OD&D on up, metagame mechanics or no. They've played them with pure DM fiat, they've played them off the grid, they've played them as fighters, as paladins, as barbarians, as cavaliers. They've played them when the only support is "I attract followers," they've played them when the only support is, "If you have a high Cha and a lenient DM" The concept of the archetype in fiction doesn't depend on those metagame mechanics. They're useful, sure. Calling it the "heart" of the warlord seems... unnecessarily restrictive to me. But that's sort of more of a personal thing, a note that it has to be a dial to turn. Even if you ditched that requirement, and went full metagame, I believe the Expertise Dice system could totally accommodate that. That was sort of the thrust of this thought experiment. [/QUOTE]
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