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Warlord as a Fighter option; Assassin as a Rogue option
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6049627" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>That sounds pretty cool for a maul-wielding fighter. Which makes me want to say - narrate it that way! (Which I know isn't really dealing with the process simulation issue.)</p><p></p><p>This is the real issue, I think.</p><p></p><p>Because I'm one of those who abandonded D&D as my primary game on simuationist grounds (I went to Rolemaster; plenty of others have gone to Runequest, GURPS, HERO, C&S, etc), I find the notion of D&D as a simulationist game ridiculous on its face. And Gygax expressly disavows simulationist treatments of hit points, saving throws and XP progression in his DMG.</p><p></p><p>That's not to say that I think there's <em>nothing</em> to the idea of "Gygaxian naturalism", but I personally find it a bit exaggerated, and I also think it has less to do with resolution mechanics and more to do with world and scenario design.</p><p></p><p>When I look at 4e, I see a game that takes features of D&D that were always present in hit points, in levelling and (in pre-3E versions) in saving throws, and extends them into the "active" side of action resolution to solve the martial/caster balance issue. (I think 3E's simulationis-ation of saving throws is a pretty big deal that's often overlooked - that's what hoses fighter saves in 3E, for example, compared to AD&D.) It's a game that knows what its mechanics are for, and what result they're aiming for - and it delivers that result!</p><p></p><p>I can see why the 4e design team saw this as a natural extension of what was already there in D&D, rather than a radical change of direction. Of course, one can always say that they ought to have had better market research, but considered just in the abstract who was to guess that so many people saw D&D's action economy, hit points, levelling etc as a process simulation enginge!</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 6049627, member: 42582"] That sounds pretty cool for a maul-wielding fighter. Which makes me want to say - narrate it that way! (Which I know isn't really dealing with the process simulation issue.) This is the real issue, I think. Because I'm one of those who abandonded D&D as my primary game on simuationist grounds (I went to Rolemaster; plenty of others have gone to Runequest, GURPS, HERO, C&S, etc), I find the notion of D&D as a simulationist game ridiculous on its face. And Gygax expressly disavows simulationist treatments of hit points, saving throws and XP progression in his DMG. That's not to say that I think there's [I]nothing[/I] to the idea of "Gygaxian naturalism", but I personally find it a bit exaggerated, and I also think it has less to do with resolution mechanics and more to do with world and scenario design. When I look at 4e, I see a game that takes features of D&D that were always present in hit points, in levelling and (in pre-3E versions) in saving throws, and extends them into the "active" side of action resolution to solve the martial/caster balance issue. (I think 3E's simulationis-ation of saving throws is a pretty big deal that's often overlooked - that's what hoses fighter saves in 3E, for example, compared to AD&D.) It's a game that knows what its mechanics are for, and what result they're aiming for - and it delivers that result! I can see why the 4e design team saw this as a natural extension of what was already there in D&D, rather than a radical change of direction. Of course, one can always say that they ought to have had better market research, but considered just in the abstract who was to guess that so many people saw D&D's action economy, hit points, levelling etc as a process simulation enginge! [/QUOTE]
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