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Warlord as a Fighter option; Assassin as a Rogue option
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<blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 6049647" data-attributes="member: 6696971"><p>First, let me say thanks for your very thoughtful and thorough posts. They're all clearly sincere, respectful, and well thought out and presented. Onto the disagreement <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" /></p><p></p><p>I know this isn't much of deja vu for you as, as you said, haven't involved yourself in many of these same conversations. However, the rounds have been made many times over on the history of D&D and its default playstyle inclinations (based on its mechanics). I'm not really sure how "process-sim" comes to mind for D&D mechanics historically given a considerable number of abstractions which are predicated upon gamist expedience first and foremost:</p><p></p><p>- The biggest offender, of course, is Hit Points. There are a myriad of vectors through which HPs do not map to any physics (nor can the PCs understand them). They are patently, and explicitly, a gamist contrivance predicated upon the need for a scaling, ablative mechanic that abstracts a PCs ability to endure "damage-in". Its both a pacing and plot-protection device.</p><p>- XP generally but specifically XP for gold. Its just a gamist pacing mechanism meant to incentivize a style of play...and it permeates the system.</p><p>- 1 minute combat rounds whereby dozens and dozens of flurries and parries will take place abstracted into one attack versus one passive defense.</p><p>- Successful saving throws versus breath weapon, or Improved Evasion against enormously voluminous blasts of energy...with no cover...and when immobilized...and the mechanics not dictating that your character "moves out of the blast/burst as an immediate reaction or free action."</p><p></p><p>I'm quite tired so my brain is in neutral so it will have to start with these biggies. These are just the tip of the iceberg. There are plenty more, especially issues with the implied setting (unbound arthropod size, no synergy between physical ability scores to properly represent musculoskeletal kinesiology, giant creatures with horrible trim characteristics and without the requisite thrust being able to fly). Anyhoo. I'm not sure how D&D has a process-sim history. In my estimation its always been a very heavily abstracted gamist system that has attempted to in-fill a few simulationist nods here and there (that haven't really been true or granular enough) for a token nod at fidelity to a real world physics model. 3.x picked up the ball and ran with it in a number of directions. Some successful. Some less so (odd demographics, Combat Feint, oddities in the unified mechanics of NPC/PC creation, etc).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I guess here is a large area of divergence. I've already spoken to CaGI but I'll do Bloody Path as this is one of my Rogue friend's (huge swashbuckler fan) favorite abilities. I'll analyze it under the auspices of the various agendas:</p><p></p><p>Gamist: Check. Provides the player an archetype-specific deployable resource that has tactical depth and potency.</p><p></p><p>Simulation: Good enough. A swashbuckler runs a guantlet of defenders and makes them look foolish with his borderline supernatural dexterity, hand-eye/hand-foot coordination and flashing blade. Sort of like Barry Sanders running making otherwise world class athletes look like buffoons as he changes field 6 times in 6 seconds, stop, starts, dips, jukes, accelerates, breaks tackles...and they're literally chasing their own tails and running into each other.</p><p></p><p>High Concept Sim: Oh absolutely. Hits all the marks of emulating the swashbuckling, heroic fantasy of the Zorro, 3 Musketeers, Princess Bride, Count of Monte Cristo, Pirates of the Caribbean, etc genres.</p><p></p><p>Narrative: In spades. Provides my player the ability to enter Author Stance and say "This extremely awesome thing that matches my vision of my character archetype...this pulling off a crazy swashbuckler thing that expresses his supernatural quickness, guile, pinache and swordsmanship...that can only happen under limited circumstances...yeah, this happens RIGHT NOW...and man is it awesome <queue PCs narration by my PC> Further, its open-ended enough that it can be rendered in several different ways as our game progresses.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Manbearcat, post: 6049647, member: 6696971"] First, let me say thanks for your very thoughtful and thorough posts. They're all clearly sincere, respectful, and well thought out and presented. Onto the disagreement :p I know this isn't much of deja vu for you as, as you said, haven't involved yourself in many of these same conversations. However, the rounds have been made many times over on the history of D&D and its default playstyle inclinations (based on its mechanics). I'm not really sure how "process-sim" comes to mind for D&D mechanics historically given a considerable number of abstractions which are predicated upon gamist expedience first and foremost: - The biggest offender, of course, is Hit Points. There are a myriad of vectors through which HPs do not map to any physics (nor can the PCs understand them). They are patently, and explicitly, a gamist contrivance predicated upon the need for a scaling, ablative mechanic that abstracts a PCs ability to endure "damage-in". Its both a pacing and plot-protection device. - XP generally but specifically XP for gold. Its just a gamist pacing mechanism meant to incentivize a style of play...and it permeates the system. - 1 minute combat rounds whereby dozens and dozens of flurries and parries will take place abstracted into one attack versus one passive defense. - Successful saving throws versus breath weapon, or Improved Evasion against enormously voluminous blasts of energy...with no cover...and when immobilized...and the mechanics not dictating that your character "moves out of the blast/burst as an immediate reaction or free action." I'm quite tired so my brain is in neutral so it will have to start with these biggies. These are just the tip of the iceberg. There are plenty more, especially issues with the implied setting (unbound arthropod size, no synergy between physical ability scores to properly represent musculoskeletal kinesiology, giant creatures with horrible trim characteristics and without the requisite thrust being able to fly). Anyhoo. I'm not sure how D&D has a process-sim history. In my estimation its always been a very heavily abstracted gamist system that has attempted to in-fill a few simulationist nods here and there (that haven't really been true or granular enough) for a token nod at fidelity to a real world physics model. 3.x picked up the ball and ran with it in a number of directions. Some successful. Some less so (odd demographics, Combat Feint, oddities in the unified mechanics of NPC/PC creation, etc). I guess here is a large area of divergence. I've already spoken to CaGI but I'll do Bloody Path as this is one of my Rogue friend's (huge swashbuckler fan) favorite abilities. I'll analyze it under the auspices of the various agendas: Gamist: Check. Provides the player an archetype-specific deployable resource that has tactical depth and potency. Simulation: Good enough. A swashbuckler runs a guantlet of defenders and makes them look foolish with his borderline supernatural dexterity, hand-eye/hand-foot coordination and flashing blade. Sort of like Barry Sanders running making otherwise world class athletes look like buffoons as he changes field 6 times in 6 seconds, stop, starts, dips, jukes, accelerates, breaks tackles...and they're literally chasing their own tails and running into each other. High Concept Sim: Oh absolutely. Hits all the marks of emulating the swashbuckling, heroic fantasy of the Zorro, 3 Musketeers, Princess Bride, Count of Monte Cristo, Pirates of the Caribbean, etc genres. Narrative: In spades. Provides my player the ability to enter Author Stance and say "This extremely awesome thing that matches my vision of my character archetype...this pulling off a crazy swashbuckler thing that expresses his supernatural quickness, guile, pinache and swordsmanship...that can only happen under limited circumstances...yeah, this happens RIGHT NOW...and man is it awesome <queue PCs narration by my PC> Further, its open-ended enough that it can be rendered in several different ways as our game progresses. [/QUOTE]
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