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Warlord as a Fighter option; Assassin as a Rogue option
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<blockquote data-quote="Tovec" data-source="post: 6050023" data-attributes="member: 95493"><p>I just want to say first off that the cricket example is a good one but it FAR OFF from the baseball example in several ways. Most notably the benefit of hitting someone and the lack of a 'beaning' attempt, as well as the expected results from those two acts. But now onto to the example.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I would model an attack with a cricket ball against the defender (who is trying to avoid the attack?) as a ranged attack vs touch.</p><p>The will save, etc. are unneeded as the bowler is trying to hit the batsman. (I hope I have the terms right, btw.)</p><p>He is TRYING to hit the batsman. The batsman is trying to avoid getting hit. That seems like attack vs AC to me.</p><p>Now, if the goal is to do something else, to make the batsman back off or in some other way produce a movement effect, I would see different mechanics. Perhaps that would be a feint or some other type of effect vs save.</p><p></p><p>However, as you rightly say, there are some things that we should expect. Either the batsman is going to duck or play the defensive shot. In the system we were using the batsman wouldn't do either of these things. If he were then the ball would go flying in any number of directions; almost certainly poorly, or the batsman would end up prone on the ground. Either way he is not getting hit with that ball. Also, it is the batsman's choice of what he is doing, yes it is a very spur of the moment choice but he has one none the less. I don't see how the bowler/attacker is making the choice for him or FORCING a SPECIFIC movement. Forcing a reaction? Sure, that makes sense. But dictating a specific action seems to break my sense of fair play.</p><p></p><p>Everything about the lure/spot of the attack has to do with something else entirely and so I can answer what you are asking about it. Also, am I allowed to you YOU to reply in my next reply to Marty?</p><p></p><p></p><p>Actually, it is the kind of forced action which is by in large poorly modeled by DnD. But that isn't the point. The point is I don't see how the bowler is going to have enough proficieny or ability to consistantly FORCE the batsman to act in any specific way. I further don't see how they are FORCING them to do it on their terms. I can see forced action. I can't see dictated action, which is what we get in 4e forced movement.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Issues with CaGI have been well discussed here and elsewhere so I'm not going into that either.</p><p></p><p>It is skill to get the enemy to react. I'll agree. I disagree that the attacker should get to choose what that reaction is. Similarly it would be like the wizard choosing for the rogue to take a fortitude save vs his fireball, even though the rogue may instead prefer to use reflex so he can evade the damage more readily. It is an off example, I realize, but the parallel is there and I hope you can see it.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tovec, post: 6050023, member: 95493"] I just want to say first off that the cricket example is a good one but it FAR OFF from the baseball example in several ways. Most notably the benefit of hitting someone and the lack of a 'beaning' attempt, as well as the expected results from those two acts. But now onto to the example. I would model an attack with a cricket ball against the defender (who is trying to avoid the attack?) as a ranged attack vs touch. The will save, etc. are unneeded as the bowler is trying to hit the batsman. (I hope I have the terms right, btw.) He is TRYING to hit the batsman. The batsman is trying to avoid getting hit. That seems like attack vs AC to me. Now, if the goal is to do something else, to make the batsman back off or in some other way produce a movement effect, I would see different mechanics. Perhaps that would be a feint or some other type of effect vs save. However, as you rightly say, there are some things that we should expect. Either the batsman is going to duck or play the defensive shot. In the system we were using the batsman wouldn't do either of these things. If he were then the ball would go flying in any number of directions; almost certainly poorly, or the batsman would end up prone on the ground. Either way he is not getting hit with that ball. Also, it is the batsman's choice of what he is doing, yes it is a very spur of the moment choice but he has one none the less. I don't see how the bowler/attacker is making the choice for him or FORCING a SPECIFIC movement. Forcing a reaction? Sure, that makes sense. But dictating a specific action seems to break my sense of fair play. Everything about the lure/spot of the attack has to do with something else entirely and so I can answer what you are asking about it. Also, am I allowed to you YOU to reply in my next reply to Marty? Actually, it is the kind of forced action which is by in large poorly modeled by DnD. But that isn't the point. The point is I don't see how the bowler is going to have enough proficieny or ability to consistantly FORCE the batsman to act in any specific way. I further don't see how they are FORCING them to do it on their terms. I can see forced action. I can't see dictated action, which is what we get in 4e forced movement. Issues with CaGI have been well discussed here and elsewhere so I'm not going into that either. It is skill to get the enemy to react. I'll agree. I disagree that the attacker should get to choose what that reaction is. Similarly it would be like the wizard choosing for the rogue to take a fortitude save vs his fireball, even though the rogue may instead prefer to use reflex so he can evade the damage more readily. It is an off example, I realize, but the parallel is there and I hope you can see it. [/QUOTE]
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