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Warlord as a Fighter option; Assassin as a Rogue option
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<blockquote data-quote="Eldritch_Lord" data-source="post: 6052239" data-attributes="member: 52073"><p>Nitpick: AoEs don't necessarily fill the whole area; a <em>lightning bolt</em> isn't necessarily a solid 5-by-5-by-120 block of electricity and so forth. But there are definitely plenty of effects where it doesn't make much sense.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Actually, it does require a check, sort of. To move onto a narrow surface 2-6 inches wide requires a DC 15 Balance check, plus surface and angle modifiers. It then says:</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So you need to make a Balance check to remain standing if you fail the Ref save, but not if you succeed. Personally, I'd give a -2 or -4 penalty to making Ref saves in that position, as that's a textbook example of unfavorable circumstances, but that's up to the DM.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Probably because 3e snaps everything to a 5-foot grid, and since not all Ref-save effects would involve moving that far they didn't bother coming up with rules for it; you can avoid <em>fireball</em> spheres and dragon-breath cones by ducking low in your space if you're near the edges, for instance, and improved cover grants +4 Ref and Improved Evasion, so perhaps they felt that more rules for moving out of the way were unnecessary (though I would disagree with that conclusion).</p><p></p><p>That's a part of the rules that I don't particularly like, along with the fact that falling damage, Dungeoncrasher, <em>telekinesis</em>, Explosive Spell, etc. all use different rules for taking damage from being knocked into things, and my group houseruled a system to unify that to make that more consistent and intuitive, as well as better rules for knockback (because all big creatures should be able to send you flying on a hit, dammit) and some tweaks to cover.</p><p></p><p>But that's not a problem with Evasion <em>per se</em>, it's an issue with Reflex saves where gamism rears its ugly head--my guess is that there are very few effects that allow you to move out of turn because combat is focused on full attacks so moving people out of position can be too good. The opposite reason is what makes big creatures knock you around, I think: if giants smacked you back several feet with each attack as they realistically should, they coudln't get off their full attacks, so instead of WotC coming up with reasonable attack-and-move rules (no, the Spring Attack chain is not reasonable) they ignored the issue.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Luck is part of it, certainly, and divine favor, but people often don't quote the whole sentence, "the 'sixth sense' which warns the individual of some otherwise unforeseen events, sheer luck, and the fantastic provisions of magical protections and/or divine protection," which to me says that a fighter's increasing HP are partly combat skill, a rogue's are partly luck, a magic-user's are partly magical protection, and a cleric's are partly divine protection, not that hit points in general are partly luck and divine protection.</p><p></p><p>Again, I see HP as being mostly physical with some components of luck and skill, but any combination is basically okay as long as a hit is a physical hit (to gel with the definition of AC, so that poisoned blades aren't mysteriously more accurate, etc.) rather than something like "He misses you and you feel more tired from dodging [OOC: a hit], and he misses you again but you feel the same [OOC: a miss]."</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>100 feet, you say? <a href="http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=6867912" target="_blank">I</a> <a href="http://www.ems1.com/ems-oddities/articles/1336036-Video-2-men-fall-100-feet-off-Hawaii-cliff-survive/" target="_blank">have</a> <a href="http://www.wistv.com/Global/story.asp?S=14836902" target="_blank">no</a> <a href="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1371490/Father-survives-breaking-bone-body-100ft-fall-tower-block.html" target="_blank">earthly</a> <a href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41334296/ns/world_news-europe/t/almost-flying-climber-survives--foot-fall/#.UKwv40R5iQQ" target="_blank">idea</a>. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Regarding fighters being magical: Many mythical heroes do impossible things without being labeled magical; Beowulf holds his breath for days while fighting underwater, but people accept him being Just That Good, they don't accuse him of casting a <em>water breathing</em> spell. Cu Chulainn has "warp spasms" that partly shapechange him, but that's basically flavor text on your average barbarian rage.</p><p></p><p>Regarding one black box being as good as any other, let me put it this way: Captain America is the peak of human strength, fitness, agility, intelligence, etc. He can survive being knocked off his feet into a wall because he's very tough, and people believe it. He can knock people out with one punch because he's very strong, and people believe it. Both of those are "something a normal human can do [take a hit, knock someone out, etc.], but more so." Making people come after you for no reason isn't "average human, but more so," the way tricking people is "bluffing, but more so" or the like.</p><p></p><p>That's why I'm pushing for small concessions to the flavor and immersion, not tossing them out entirely. It's an uncanny valley, sort of: it's <em>almost</em> action movie physics, but not quite, so it looks reasonable upon first glance but issues crop up in play if you run into corner cases and try to extrapolate; it's not "realistic" or consistent enough to be fully simulationist, it's not handwave-y enough to be narrativist like a "spend a drama point, everyone gangs up on you" mechanic would be, it's somewhere in the middle. It just takes a bit of a push to get them over that hill and make them one or the other, but because they're not purely narrative or very simulationist they stick out.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Eldritch_Lord, post: 6052239, member: 52073"] Nitpick: AoEs don't necessarily fill the whole area; a [I]lightning bolt[/I] isn't necessarily a solid 5-by-5-by-120 block of electricity and so forth. But there are definitely plenty of effects where it doesn't make much sense. Actually, it does require a check, sort of. To move onto a narrow surface 2-6 inches wide requires a DC 15 Balance check, plus surface and angle modifiers. It then says: So you need to make a Balance check to remain standing if you fail the Ref save, but not if you succeed. Personally, I'd give a -2 or -4 penalty to making Ref saves in that position, as that's a textbook example of unfavorable circumstances, but that's up to the DM. Probably because 3e snaps everything to a 5-foot grid, and since not all Ref-save effects would involve moving that far they didn't bother coming up with rules for it; you can avoid [I]fireball[/I] spheres and dragon-breath cones by ducking low in your space if you're near the edges, for instance, and improved cover grants +4 Ref and Improved Evasion, so perhaps they felt that more rules for moving out of the way were unnecessary (though I would disagree with that conclusion). That's a part of the rules that I don't particularly like, along with the fact that falling damage, Dungeoncrasher, [I]telekinesis[/I], Explosive Spell, etc. all use different rules for taking damage from being knocked into things, and my group houseruled a system to unify that to make that more consistent and intuitive, as well as better rules for knockback (because all big creatures should be able to send you flying on a hit, dammit) and some tweaks to cover. But that's not a problem with Evasion [I]per se[/I], it's an issue with Reflex saves where gamism rears its ugly head--my guess is that there are very few effects that allow you to move out of turn because combat is focused on full attacks so moving people out of position can be too good. The opposite reason is what makes big creatures knock you around, I think: if giants smacked you back several feet with each attack as they realistically should, they coudln't get off their full attacks, so instead of WotC coming up with reasonable attack-and-move rules (no, the Spring Attack chain is not reasonable) they ignored the issue. Luck is part of it, certainly, and divine favor, but people often don't quote the whole sentence, "the 'sixth sense' which warns the individual of some otherwise unforeseen events, sheer luck, and the fantastic provisions of magical protections and/or divine protection," which to me says that a fighter's increasing HP are partly combat skill, a rogue's are partly luck, a magic-user's are partly magical protection, and a cleric's are partly divine protection, not that hit points in general are partly luck and divine protection. Again, I see HP as being mostly physical with some components of luck and skill, but any combination is basically okay as long as a hit is a physical hit (to gel with the definition of AC, so that poisoned blades aren't mysteriously more accurate, etc.) rather than something like "He misses you and you feel more tired from dodging [OOC: a hit], and he misses you again but you feel the same [OOC: a miss]." 100 feet, you say? [url=http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=6867912]I[/url] [url=http://www.ems1.com/ems-oddities/articles/1336036-Video-2-men-fall-100-feet-off-Hawaii-cliff-survive/]have[/url] [url=http://www.wistv.com/Global/story.asp?S=14836902]no[/url] [url=http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1371490/Father-survives-breaking-bone-body-100ft-fall-tower-block.html]earthly[/url] [url=http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41334296/ns/world_news-europe/t/almost-flying-climber-survives--foot-fall/#.UKwv40R5iQQ]idea[/url]. ;) Regarding fighters being magical: Many mythical heroes do impossible things without being labeled magical; Beowulf holds his breath for days while fighting underwater, but people accept him being Just That Good, they don't accuse him of casting a [I]water breathing[/I] spell. Cu Chulainn has "warp spasms" that partly shapechange him, but that's basically flavor text on your average barbarian rage. Regarding one black box being as good as any other, let me put it this way: Captain America is the peak of human strength, fitness, agility, intelligence, etc. He can survive being knocked off his feet into a wall because he's very tough, and people believe it. He can knock people out with one punch because he's very strong, and people believe it. Both of those are "something a normal human can do [take a hit, knock someone out, etc.], but more so." Making people come after you for no reason isn't "average human, but more so," the way tricking people is "bluffing, but more so" or the like. That's why I'm pushing for small concessions to the flavor and immersion, not tossing them out entirely. It's an uncanny valley, sort of: it's [I]almost[/I] action movie physics, but not quite, so it looks reasonable upon first glance but issues crop up in play if you run into corner cases and try to extrapolate; it's not "realistic" or consistent enough to be fully simulationist, it's not handwave-y enough to be narrativist like a "spend a drama point, everyone gangs up on you" mechanic would be, it's somewhere in the middle. It just takes a bit of a push to get them over that hill and make them one or the other, but because they're not purely narrative or very simulationist they stick out. [/QUOTE]
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