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[Warlords] Should D&D be tied to D&D Worlds?
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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 6144486" data-attributes="member: 87792"><p>You have my case completely wrong.</p><p></p><p>My case is D&D <strong>does</strong> include non-magical spike healing. All historical versions of D&D I am aware of have had this, and as far as I am aware all playtest packets of D&D Next have this. If you are designing a game from the ground up without spike healing then that's fine. I play a number of games without spike healing. And they work.</p><p></p><p>If you are Mike Mearls or otherwise in charge of D&D Next and are able to take Cure Light Wounds and all low level burst healing away from the Cleric and the magical healers (or turn it into healing over time), and the rest of D&D then the need of the Warlord to have spike healing vanishes.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And your posts so far have been utterly independent of D&D. As this is a thread about D&D and D&D Next in specific, most of your posts thus far have been the equivalent of starting off as a theoretical physicist by telling me to imagine a <a href="http://Spherical_cow" target="_blank">spherical_cow</a>. Well, yes. I could start by imagining a spherical cow. But I've a four legged cud chewing manure maker right in front of me. And it is in no way spherical. So conversations that start off by assuming a spherical cow have very little to do with the actual process of getting milk.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You're veering into personal attack territory there.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Except that as I have pointed out it is far, far the most efficient. Because you can use it reactively rather than proactively. And balancing any other approach would be a nightmare. I went into why it's so much more effective than other methods in the OP - of which the largest part is that you can apply it <em>after the effect</em> to counteract the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune. Not one of your spherical cows that I recall has even touched on the point that spike healing can be fundamentally far more efficiently applied than any type of prospective damage mitigation. Spherical cows are no good at all when you sell beef by the leg.</p><p></p><p>And your dismissal of a panic button in the hands of a tactician is dismissing what a tactician <em>does</em>. To quote von Moltke, "Strategy is a system of expedients". In other words strategists should always be prepared to deal with the fact that "No plan survives contact with the enemy" (von Moltke again). Your claim that "The game is being built with the idea of non-panic-button gameplay in mind." contradicts my experiences and the presence of spike healing (and the idea that combat should be tense). Again, it's a demonstrable spherical cow.</p><p></p><p>Actually, looking at what it would take to have the utility of healing without actually restoring hit points, you need two things.</p><p></p><p>1: The Warlord needs to be able to utterly negate hits from weapons or damage from spells. And it needs to be able to do this <em>reliably </em>- not inflicting something like disadvantage to a to hit roll but actively flat out negating the hit or making the person hit save against the spell. They need to be able to say to incoming attacks "Nope. That did nothing." (Or, more likely in character "Cerrig! Duck!"). And they need to do it <em>after</em> the attack roll has been made/saving throw has been failed. (Which is in effect what healing does). This is because who needs healing can be seen after the event, so it comes with a <em>spectacular</em> advantage in knowing where to apply it.</p><p></p><p>2: They need to be able to say "Fight on. Or clear out." Providing a hit point buffer even if it only lasts for a few minutes to keep people functional when they would otherwise drop. And have genuinely effective out of combat mundane healing that can cover the gap.</p><p></p><p>But if point 1 - ability to negate an attack roll/saving throw <em>that has already been made</em> doesn't happen they are so far behind the functionality of the spike healers that you might as well not bother. Retroactive spike healing is just that much of an advantage - and not one any of your attempts have even started to come to grips with.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 6144486, member: 87792"] You have my case completely wrong. My case is D&D [B]does[/B] include non-magical spike healing. All historical versions of D&D I am aware of have had this, and as far as I am aware all playtest packets of D&D Next have this. If you are designing a game from the ground up without spike healing then that's fine. I play a number of games without spike healing. And they work. If you are Mike Mearls or otherwise in charge of D&D Next and are able to take Cure Light Wounds and all low level burst healing away from the Cleric and the magical healers (or turn it into healing over time), and the rest of D&D then the need of the Warlord to have spike healing vanishes. And your posts so far have been utterly independent of D&D. As this is a thread about D&D and D&D Next in specific, most of your posts thus far have been the equivalent of starting off as a theoretical physicist by telling me to imagine a [URL="http://Spherical_cow"]spherical_cow[/URL]. Well, yes. I could start by imagining a spherical cow. But I've a four legged cud chewing manure maker right in front of me. And it is in no way spherical. So conversations that start off by assuming a spherical cow have very little to do with the actual process of getting milk. You're veering into personal attack territory there. Except that as I have pointed out it is far, far the most efficient. Because you can use it reactively rather than proactively. And balancing any other approach would be a nightmare. I went into why it's so much more effective than other methods in the OP - of which the largest part is that you can apply it [I]after the effect[/I] to counteract the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune. Not one of your spherical cows that I recall has even touched on the point that spike healing can be fundamentally far more efficiently applied than any type of prospective damage mitigation. Spherical cows are no good at all when you sell beef by the leg. And your dismissal of a panic button in the hands of a tactician is dismissing what a tactician [I]does[/I]. To quote von Moltke, "Strategy is a system of expedients". In other words strategists should always be prepared to deal with the fact that "No plan survives contact with the enemy" (von Moltke again). Your claim that "The game is being built with the idea of non-panic-button gameplay in mind." contradicts my experiences and the presence of spike healing (and the idea that combat should be tense). Again, it's a demonstrable spherical cow. Actually, looking at what it would take to have the utility of healing without actually restoring hit points, you need two things. 1: The Warlord needs to be able to utterly negate hits from weapons or damage from spells. And it needs to be able to do this [I]reliably [/I]- not inflicting something like disadvantage to a to hit roll but actively flat out negating the hit or making the person hit save against the spell. They need to be able to say to incoming attacks "Nope. That did nothing." (Or, more likely in character "Cerrig! Duck!"). And they need to do it [I]after[/I] the attack roll has been made/saving throw has been failed. (Which is in effect what healing does). This is because who needs healing can be seen after the event, so it comes with a [I]spectacular[/I] advantage in knowing where to apply it. 2: They need to be able to say "Fight on. Or clear out." Providing a hit point buffer even if it only lasts for a few minutes to keep people functional when they would otherwise drop. And have genuinely effective out of combat mundane healing that can cover the gap. But if point 1 - ability to negate an attack roll/saving throw [I]that has already been made[/I] doesn't happen they are so far behind the functionality of the spike healers that you might as well not bother. Retroactive spike healing is just that much of an advantage - and not one any of your attempts have even started to come to grips with. [/QUOTE]
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