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Was Gandalf Just A 5th Level Magic User?
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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 7696601" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>I take no notice of anything from those movies. I do however agree that 5e's bounded accuracy mechanic and generally lower power level in higher level spellcaster's allows you to up the character levels of the party members while still capturing the zeitgeist of the books. In 5e, Gandalf is perhaps 9th to 11th level. I agree with those that treat him under 5e as a variant Bard, since the Bard's origin in the Kalevala is very much also to be counted as source material for the Tolkien universe. However, in the books (as opposed to the movies), Gandalf is very much more 'wizardly' than 'druidic', as opposed to his cousin Radaghast who seems more druidic than wizardly. Gandalf, as a vassal of Varda and with special gifting for wise words and council, make I think a good Lore Bard in 5e. Obviously, unlike Bombadil, who is much more overtly bardic in his magic and acts very much like a character in the Kalevala, Gandalf doesn't sing to cast his spells but rather uses 'words of power', but that's just the drapes. Mechanically it's a pretty good fit overall, and you could probably tweak the build with a bit of multi-classing.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't see how that necessarily follows. The text implies that the fight was very lengthy, and that Fingolfin was winning by using a 'fight defensively' strategy to avoid Morgoth's blows and that the fight went on for perhaps hours. Morgoth starts to get the better of it, smashing Fingolfin with Grond three times but is unable to finish him. Finally, the fight is decided when Fingolfin fumbles and fails a reflex save, falling backwards into one of the many pits torn into the earth by Grond's falling. Seeing that his foe is about finished, Morgoth delivers the killing attack with his foot, snapping Fingolfin's neck. However, this draws an attack of opportunity which Fingolfin uses to deliver one final critical hit to Morgoth's heel, permanently maiming Morgoth (who by this point has given up is spirit form in favor of a stronger permanent physical body the better to manipulate the physical world).</p><p> </p><p></p><p></p><p>All of that is relatively coherent. A rough calculation of Boromir's level could be made by how many orcs he could reasonably be expected to slay. In 1e, he's probably less than 9th level, but not less than 6th. In 5e he could well be higher level, reflecting the space opened up by making Wizards relatively less powerful and the bounded accuracy mechanic. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't feel any of the Hobbits with the exception of Bilbo, who was hired as a 'burglar' and appeared to try to fit into this role, make for good thieves. In 1e terms, Merry and Pippin make better 0th level Cavalier squires than thieves - they certainly have the social background for the class. In 3e terms, they all appear to have NPC classes initially with a non-adventurous background, and all multiclass into fighter or perhaps ranger (or even possibly Bard). They are not particularly known for their stealth, and to the extent that they are good at it, it could easily be explained as a combination of racial ability and magic items (those cloaks of elvenkind). Gollum however is best represented as a Rogue, and probably a quite high level one. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I believe you have this reversed. In D&D, the original flavor text for the Type 6 demon suggested only a few existed. In Tolkien lore, there appear to have been dozens of Balors at one point - part of the ainur vassal host of Morgoth, probably snared from the fire loving host of Aule. The balrog of moria is presumably of the common variety, as opposed to a balor lord like Gothmog. The balrogs of Tolkien are expressly less potent than the balor of D&D in any of their recent incarnations, and while fantastically more powerful than the party, there is no reason to suppose that the balrog of Moria is a particularly exceptional one of its kind other than having survived the sacking of Thangorodrim, presumably by hiding deep within the earth. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I think that's reasonably coherent, except for your last statement. It's clear from the text that without the ring, he's unable to take the CR 30+ form he'd like to take, and is forced to a more ghostly form. This explains in part why Sauron is so cowardly and is mainly able to threaten Middle Earth through his vassals at this point. Tiamat doesn't need an orc army to destroy a city. She just can. Sauron's physical powers are far more limited at this point in Middle Earth's history. I think it would be sufficient to have Sauron in the low 20's to have him capable of daunting pretty much anyone on Middle Earth at the time, with the possible exception of Glorfindel who is probably the highest level character in middle earth other than Sauron. Obviously, with the ring, Sauron recovers his full CR 30+ powers and returns to the potency he had during the first age as Morgoth's chief lieutenant. In 3e or early terms, I think you need only have about 2/3rds that power level. A party of 15th level characters is fully capable of taking on most or all of the fiend lords in 1e, for example.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 7696601, member: 4937"] I take no notice of anything from those movies. I do however agree that 5e's bounded accuracy mechanic and generally lower power level in higher level spellcaster's allows you to up the character levels of the party members while still capturing the zeitgeist of the books. In 5e, Gandalf is perhaps 9th to 11th level. I agree with those that treat him under 5e as a variant Bard, since the Bard's origin in the Kalevala is very much also to be counted as source material for the Tolkien universe. However, in the books (as opposed to the movies), Gandalf is very much more 'wizardly' than 'druidic', as opposed to his cousin Radaghast who seems more druidic than wizardly. Gandalf, as a vassal of Varda and with special gifting for wise words and council, make I think a good Lore Bard in 5e. Obviously, unlike Bombadil, who is much more overtly bardic in his magic and acts very much like a character in the Kalevala, Gandalf doesn't sing to cast his spells but rather uses 'words of power', but that's just the drapes. Mechanically it's a pretty good fit overall, and you could probably tweak the build with a bit of multi-classing. I don't see how that necessarily follows. The text implies that the fight was very lengthy, and that Fingolfin was winning by using a 'fight defensively' strategy to avoid Morgoth's blows and that the fight went on for perhaps hours. Morgoth starts to get the better of it, smashing Fingolfin with Grond three times but is unable to finish him. Finally, the fight is decided when Fingolfin fumbles and fails a reflex save, falling backwards into one of the many pits torn into the earth by Grond's falling. Seeing that his foe is about finished, Morgoth delivers the killing attack with his foot, snapping Fingolfin's neck. However, this draws an attack of opportunity which Fingolfin uses to deliver one final critical hit to Morgoth's heel, permanently maiming Morgoth (who by this point has given up is spirit form in favor of a stronger permanent physical body the better to manipulate the physical world). All of that is relatively coherent. A rough calculation of Boromir's level could be made by how many orcs he could reasonably be expected to slay. In 1e, he's probably less than 9th level, but not less than 6th. In 5e he could well be higher level, reflecting the space opened up by making Wizards relatively less powerful and the bounded accuracy mechanic. I don't feel any of the Hobbits with the exception of Bilbo, who was hired as a 'burglar' and appeared to try to fit into this role, make for good thieves. In 1e terms, Merry and Pippin make better 0th level Cavalier squires than thieves - they certainly have the social background for the class. In 3e terms, they all appear to have NPC classes initially with a non-adventurous background, and all multiclass into fighter or perhaps ranger (or even possibly Bard). They are not particularly known for their stealth, and to the extent that they are good at it, it could easily be explained as a combination of racial ability and magic items (those cloaks of elvenkind). Gollum however is best represented as a Rogue, and probably a quite high level one. I believe you have this reversed. In D&D, the original flavor text for the Type 6 demon suggested only a few existed. In Tolkien lore, there appear to have been dozens of Balors at one point - part of the ainur vassal host of Morgoth, probably snared from the fire loving host of Aule. The balrog of moria is presumably of the common variety, as opposed to a balor lord like Gothmog. The balrogs of Tolkien are expressly less potent than the balor of D&D in any of their recent incarnations, and while fantastically more powerful than the party, there is no reason to suppose that the balrog of Moria is a particularly exceptional one of its kind other than having survived the sacking of Thangorodrim, presumably by hiding deep within the earth. I think that's reasonably coherent, except for your last statement. It's clear from the text that without the ring, he's unable to take the CR 30+ form he'd like to take, and is forced to a more ghostly form. This explains in part why Sauron is so cowardly and is mainly able to threaten Middle Earth through his vassals at this point. Tiamat doesn't need an orc army to destroy a city. She just can. Sauron's physical powers are far more limited at this point in Middle Earth's history. I think it would be sufficient to have Sauron in the low 20's to have him capable of daunting pretty much anyone on Middle Earth at the time, with the possible exception of Glorfindel who is probably the highest level character in middle earth other than Sauron. Obviously, with the ring, Sauron recovers his full CR 30+ powers and returns to the potency he had during the first age as Morgoth's chief lieutenant. In 3e or early terms, I think you need only have about 2/3rds that power level. A party of 15th level characters is fully capable of taking on most or all of the fiend lords in 1e, for example. [/QUOTE]
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