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Was Gandalf Just A 5th Level Magic User?
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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 7696608" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>Again, Gygax's Balrog only has 8+8 HD. If we are going by the strict D&D interpretation, Gandalf only needs to have a Staff of the Magi to run the scene - Gandalf does a retributive strike, they both die, the rest is color. Hence, presumably Gandalf need only be a 5th level wizard.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No, not quite. I suggest he's more powerful than a 5th level wizard, but still a 5th level wizard (I prefer 6th, giving him multiple 3rd level spell slots, which I believe can be sustained from the text). I believe that it is somewhat wrong to say that Gandalf is only a 5th level wizard, as he is clearly not of mere mortal race. But, in terms of his arcane abilities, I concur with the original essay that the evidence of the text suggests he can cast no more than 3rd level spells in D&D terms. Thus, as the original essayist points out, he's better treated as a 5th level wizard (or in my opinion a 6th level wizard) than anything of higher level. A 13th level wizard for example, has abilities that vastly exceed anything Gandalf appears capable of, and such a high level would not explain why Gandalf has some of the difficulties he has or why he tries to resolve them how he does. </p><p></p><p>The stats I suggest for Gandalf means that he is a 6th level wizard, but that he has some other abilities as well. Those other abilities however, while broad, are not significantly beyond what we'd expect of a 6th level character. For example, if we assume Gandalf is a powerful Agathion with the ability to cast 3rd level arcane spells, we have a character with just 7HD with the powers of roughly a 7th level psionic fighter, 7th level cleric, and 6th level wizard combined. That means Gandalf is more than just a 5th level wizard, but does not imply that in any fashion Gandalf is a high level wizard or that he could use higher level spells but is just choosing not to.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That doesn't follow either. Most of the time Gandalf acts like he's merely a 1st level wizard. When Gandalf occasionally does 'real magic', it's something akin to fireball or lightning bolt. I agree that the text is easiest to explain if Gandalf is more powerful than a human 6th level wizard, but I don't agree that makes Gandalf more than about a 6th level wizard. His other abilities are best explained as either racial abilities, or of the powers of the minor artifact (Narya) that he carries, which I assume are roughly equivalent to a Ring of Elemental Command (Fire) with a couple of bonus abilities and drawbacks. This would mean that Gandalf's highest level spell is a 'Flamestrike', which is again, very much in line with everything we either see Gandalf doing or Gandalf is implied to be able to do off camera.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Again, that doesn't follow. Gandalf highly limiting himself in the text is Gandalf not showing off that he's actually a 6th level wizard capable of doing things like fireball. Gandalf treats fireball and lightning bolt as things he needs to conceal. Gandalf particularly treats his possession of Narya as something he needs to conceal, and its from Narya that we know he gets most of his command over fire. Most people think of Gandalf as a simple travelling loremaster or even a vagrant. That he's more than a 1st level wizard with a few simple tricks and great fireworks is something he conceals the majority of the time. The Gandalf we see blasting the wolves with fire is Gandalf the Grey uncloaked. There is no evidence in the text that Gandalf can cast 5th or 6th level spells even if he needed to or wanted to, and in particular Saruman has renounced his vows to conceal his power and yet does not appear to be more than a 6th or 7th level wizard. So there is no reason to expect that Gandalf is actually 15th level or anything, but pretending to be 6th level. The text is much more easily explained if Gandalf is 6th level but pretends to be 1st level, and also conceals his racial heritage as an Ainur and his possession of one of the rings of power.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The movies again... </p><p></p><p>Sauron Lord of Werewolves was originally Morgoth's chief lieutenant. He was a peer to and senior in rank to Gothmog lord of Balrogs and to Ancalagon the Black, a flame breathing dragon of the largest possible size. Sauron's ring of power that he later forged does greatly increase his CR, but he's already without it more dangerous presumably than a 10HD red dragon. In 1e terms, he's roughly comparable to a Duke of Hell or a Demon Lord. Morgoth's power is presumably comparable to a Lord of Hell or a Demon Prince (Asmodeus, Grazzt, Demogorgon). </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Epic level is variously defined by the different editions. In 1e, anything above name level (9th) could reasonably be described as epic level. Luthein is a high-level bard in 1e terms, probably equivalent to about 17th level. In 3e she is a high level bard with the half-celestial template, possibly 20th level.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The Valar did not create the universe. Only Illuvatar was capable of creating the universe. The Valar were made responsible for shaping the universe from the raw material Illuvatar provided, which the text makes clear was an act of labor for them. They simply could not will it into being and presumably spent thousands of years on the task. This is within the power of a Solar. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Nor could the Valar for crying out loud! Again, the creation of the dwarves specifically required the intervention of Illuvatar. Aule only shaped them out of stone and was playing with them like dolls using something akin to Animate Object, when Illuvatar caught him. Aule acted very much like a guilty child and confessed that he'd been vain gloriously pretending to be able to create life, something that was well beyond his station and ability. Read the text for crying out loud.</p><p></p><p>There is just no reason to inflate numbers and stats just for the sake of having big numbers. You only need such numbers as would explain the story. Inflating something up for the sake of shock and awe just requires you to inflate everything else up as well, which creates more problems than it solves. That's the theme of the original essay.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 7696608, member: 4937"] Again, Gygax's Balrog only has 8+8 HD. If we are going by the strict D&D interpretation, Gandalf only needs to have a Staff of the Magi to run the scene - Gandalf does a retributive strike, they both die, the rest is color. Hence, presumably Gandalf need only be a 5th level wizard. No, not quite. I suggest he's more powerful than a 5th level wizard, but still a 5th level wizard (I prefer 6th, giving him multiple 3rd level spell slots, which I believe can be sustained from the text). I believe that it is somewhat wrong to say that Gandalf is only a 5th level wizard, as he is clearly not of mere mortal race. But, in terms of his arcane abilities, I concur with the original essay that the evidence of the text suggests he can cast no more than 3rd level spells in D&D terms. Thus, as the original essayist points out, he's better treated as a 5th level wizard (or in my opinion a 6th level wizard) than anything of higher level. A 13th level wizard for example, has abilities that vastly exceed anything Gandalf appears capable of, and such a high level would not explain why Gandalf has some of the difficulties he has or why he tries to resolve them how he does. The stats I suggest for Gandalf means that he is a 6th level wizard, but that he has some other abilities as well. Those other abilities however, while broad, are not significantly beyond what we'd expect of a 6th level character. For example, if we assume Gandalf is a powerful Agathion with the ability to cast 3rd level arcane spells, we have a character with just 7HD with the powers of roughly a 7th level psionic fighter, 7th level cleric, and 6th level wizard combined. That means Gandalf is more than just a 5th level wizard, but does not imply that in any fashion Gandalf is a high level wizard or that he could use higher level spells but is just choosing not to. That doesn't follow either. Most of the time Gandalf acts like he's merely a 1st level wizard. When Gandalf occasionally does 'real magic', it's something akin to fireball or lightning bolt. I agree that the text is easiest to explain if Gandalf is more powerful than a human 6th level wizard, but I don't agree that makes Gandalf more than about a 6th level wizard. His other abilities are best explained as either racial abilities, or of the powers of the minor artifact (Narya) that he carries, which I assume are roughly equivalent to a Ring of Elemental Command (Fire) with a couple of bonus abilities and drawbacks. This would mean that Gandalf's highest level spell is a 'Flamestrike', which is again, very much in line with everything we either see Gandalf doing or Gandalf is implied to be able to do off camera. Again, that doesn't follow. Gandalf highly limiting himself in the text is Gandalf not showing off that he's actually a 6th level wizard capable of doing things like fireball. Gandalf treats fireball and lightning bolt as things he needs to conceal. Gandalf particularly treats his possession of Narya as something he needs to conceal, and its from Narya that we know he gets most of his command over fire. Most people think of Gandalf as a simple travelling loremaster or even a vagrant. That he's more than a 1st level wizard with a few simple tricks and great fireworks is something he conceals the majority of the time. The Gandalf we see blasting the wolves with fire is Gandalf the Grey uncloaked. There is no evidence in the text that Gandalf can cast 5th or 6th level spells even if he needed to or wanted to, and in particular Saruman has renounced his vows to conceal his power and yet does not appear to be more than a 6th or 7th level wizard. So there is no reason to expect that Gandalf is actually 15th level or anything, but pretending to be 6th level. The text is much more easily explained if Gandalf is 6th level but pretends to be 1st level, and also conceals his racial heritage as an Ainur and his possession of one of the rings of power. The movies again... Sauron Lord of Werewolves was originally Morgoth's chief lieutenant. He was a peer to and senior in rank to Gothmog lord of Balrogs and to Ancalagon the Black, a flame breathing dragon of the largest possible size. Sauron's ring of power that he later forged does greatly increase his CR, but he's already without it more dangerous presumably than a 10HD red dragon. In 1e terms, he's roughly comparable to a Duke of Hell or a Demon Lord. Morgoth's power is presumably comparable to a Lord of Hell or a Demon Prince (Asmodeus, Grazzt, Demogorgon). Epic level is variously defined by the different editions. In 1e, anything above name level (9th) could reasonably be described as epic level. Luthein is a high-level bard in 1e terms, probably equivalent to about 17th level. In 3e she is a high level bard with the half-celestial template, possibly 20th level. The Valar did not create the universe. Only Illuvatar was capable of creating the universe. The Valar were made responsible for shaping the universe from the raw material Illuvatar provided, which the text makes clear was an act of labor for them. They simply could not will it into being and presumably spent thousands of years on the task. This is within the power of a Solar. Nor could the Valar for crying out loud! Again, the creation of the dwarves specifically required the intervention of Illuvatar. Aule only shaped them out of stone and was playing with them like dolls using something akin to Animate Object, when Illuvatar caught him. Aule acted very much like a guilty child and confessed that he'd been vain gloriously pretending to be able to create life, something that was well beyond his station and ability. Read the text for crying out loud. There is just no reason to inflate numbers and stats just for the sake of having big numbers. You only need such numbers as would explain the story. Inflating something up for the sake of shock and awe just requires you to inflate everything else up as well, which creates more problems than it solves. That's the theme of the original essay. [/QUOTE]
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