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We D&D- Tyranny of Dragons Part 2: The Rise of Tiamat #24b Strike Team 1 Part 2 A Ton of Undead.
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<blockquote data-quote="Goonalan" data-source="post: 7571886" data-attributes="member: 16069"><p style="text-align: center"><strong>We D&D.</strong></p><p></p><p><strong>Lost Mine of Phandelver #14c Review.</strong></p><p></p><p>I just wanted to say a few words about the scenario, and the hits and misses I/we encountered along the way, also a chance to talk briefly about how the players handled things as they went along. The information presented here is not only my thoughts but also those of the players, I generally give out a short questionnaire/feedback sheet at the end of each adventure (or for larger adventures at the end of each chapter) to get the players to comment on the things they dis/liked et al. I’m a lecturer remember, it’s what we do and if we don’t do it ourselves then someone else (at work) will do it and they’ll have their own agenda.</p><p></p><p>So, in the order it happened-</p><p></p><p><strong>1) Goblin Ambush.</strong></p><p></p><p>Nice opening, if you play the goblins sneaky then this can be a hell of a tough fight- particularly if they get a surprise round and as with our group there are just four PCs in action- we had a PC unconscious and another on very few hit points after the goblin’s opening salvo. Likewise if one of the goblin buggers gets away and heads back to the lair to tell his friends then this too can prove fatal a little further along the track. If you like that kind of thing then that’s all good, if however (like me) you had a couple of noobs aboard then pull your punches.</p><p></p><p>In fact when you’re playing the goblins- you’re probably going to have to pull your punches a lot, if you start using their Nimble Escape to its fullest then… well, things can get difficult for the PCs very quickly.</p><p></p><p>The problems in our game came before this encounter, the guys (Pete & Rob) decided to play their PCs as… ‘difficult’, that’s the polite version of events, they conspired (seemingly) to piss off their other halves (the other two PCs), which almost broke the game in the first session.</p><p></p><p>I am happy to report that by the end of the adventure harmony had been achieved, the fellers figured out that this particular adventure was about their partners having fun and finding out for themselves how the game they love works. Pete & Rob took a back seat for a majority of this scenario, allowing the ladies (the noobs) to make lots of decisions and lead the way.</p><p></p><p><strong>2) Cragmaw Goblin Lair.</strong></p><p></p><p>Again, all good- I didn’t get a chance to pull the tsunami trap- obviously things went badly for the PCs here because Flint (Pete) decided to seek revenge for a previous play-through of this adventure. Foolishly (perhaps- you decide) I allowed him to do this. The weird thing is it almost worked, if the PCs had just managed to land a few more hits, or else stay on their feet a little longer then they would have won through. As it was we ended up with a 75% TPK.</p><p></p><p>The problem with this section is how much of the plot to reveal, when (and if) the guys rescue Sildar then you (the glorious DM) have to decide how much to tell them about where Gundren is at, and what’s going on. I am of the opinion (in hindsight, and having played this scenario a few times) that it’s probably best not to tell the PCs too much- Gundren has been taken, where is he? Let them figure the rest out as they go on.</p><p></p><p>The issue for us was that the PCs, after being told about the Black Spider et al by Sildar, were entirely concentrated on recovering their dwarven patron, which made what comes next a whole lot less exciting. Perhaps not less exciting, but certainly less to do with the overall plot, and therefore at times frustrating for the players.</p><p></p><p><strong>3) Phandalin & the Redbrands Lair.</strong></p><p></p><p>Again, all good- although on reflection if I hadn’t had fired up the PCs with the quest to find their missing patron Gundren then this section would perhaps have been more engaging. Or else if the Redbrands themselves were more involved with the Black Spider’s plot to discover Wave Echo Cave. It didn’t help that the only creatures who knew more about the main plot- Droop the goblin, and Mosk and the bugbears, were either killed, or else fled the lair. In short the PCs had great fun (and were terrified in parts) by Cecil the Nothic, the fight with Glasstaff, and the rescue of Mirna and her kids- they loved all of this but it didn’t get them anywhere with the main plot.</p><p></p><p>It was marvellous to see the amount of roleplaying going on, Sandy (Myrium) is a silver-tongued so-and-so (a teacher by trade) and thinks quickly on her feet, at times the other PCs just hung on and waited to see what she was going to come up with next.</p><p></p><p>If I was to play it again then, as stated above, I’d give less of the main plot away in the Cragmaw Goblin lair, make things a lot more confused- where is Gundren? I’d also play the Redbrand sub-plot a lot slower, with a few encounters with the bad guys in Phandalin (bullying the residents et al) before the PCs decide to head in to their lair to kick ass. I’d also try to incorporate some more of the faction-based side quests that are available here (see below).</p><p></p><p><strong>4) Phandalin faction-based side quests.</strong></p><p></p><p>I still can’t get these to work properly, as above if I had given less away at the start and played the Redbrands slower, then… maybe. I think the side quests need to be tied in better to the main plot, my suggestions are, and in the order I’d try to play them-</p><p></p><p>a) Two dwarf miners kidnapped/taken by the Wyvern Tor Orcs, let the PCs believe (after interviewing other miners who witnessed the kidnapping) that the dwarves are Nundro and Tharden Rockseeker. Obviously, this will turn out to be untrue, the kidnapped dwarves are just miners, but they may know something- if the PCs manage to rescue them, perhaps the pair had a drink with Gundren before he departed for Neverwinter to hire the PCs. This could be the first time Wave Echo Cave is mentioned- Gundren let something slip while he was in his cups.</p><p></p><p>b) Old Owl Well and the Red Wizard, in truth I like this side-quest as it is- it could be made to feel a little more relevant with reports of the Red Wizard poking around in the region, but… I’d leave it in and leave it be. I like to play the Red Wizard as chatty and have him debate the PCs- his zombie servitors keeping him safe in the wilds et al.</p><p></p><p>c) Conyberry & Agatha’s Lair, again try to fold it in to the main plot- the PCs go here to help Sister Garaele, why not ham it up with a séance (or similar), or just have Agatha drop in to a trance and start mumbling stuff about ‘the lost Rockseeker’, or, ‘the dark elf seeker’, or… well, anything else semi-plot related that can give the PCs a clue as to what is going on.</p><p></p><p><strong>5) The Ruins of Thundertree.</strong></p><p></p><p>The players loved this section, mainly because they were stuck for a good while and once they were given the name of Reidoth the Brown, and the fact that he knew where King Grol and the Cragmaw Goblins are laired, well… they were very keen to make the Druid’s acquaintance. It also helped that Thundertree had some of the grooviest villains the guys had encountered so far- Twig Blights, which proved to be weird but easy foes; Zombies with ash clouds; and by far the best- the Green Dragon and the Dragon Cultists.</p><p></p><p>In-game the battle and roleplay with the Dragon Cultists played out really well and cumulated in the PCs pretending to be cultists in order to get close to the dragon. Simply put the PCs loved Thundertree- they also liked that they had to buy Reidoth’s favour by overcoming the foes here.</p><p></p><p>Obviously, the conversion of the Dragon Cultists by Myrium also played well, of all of the events in this play-through this is by far the most repeated piece of in-game action, which is a refreshing change.</p><p></p><p><strong>6) Cragmaw Castle & King Grol.</strong></p><p></p><p>At this point in our play-through the guys were starting to see better ways of doing things, i.e. not just barging in through the front door, in many ways I would have enjoyed the guys going toe-to-toe with the inhabitants of Cragmaw Castle, some titanic sprawling melee. I like to get good value for my bad guys, the PCs however were already displaying signs of being smarter than the average bears, and as good at roleplaying as they are fighting, if not better.</p><p></p><p>Odd thought but when I DM mature players (ages 40+) and the group is not all male, then there’s lots more roleplay, I don’t have any proof for this statement, but it certainly appears to me to be the way of things. Thinking back, I’ve not DMed too many groups that have been 50% Male/Female, this may actually be a first. The noobs/ladies don’t have a firm grip on all of the rules (why would they), and so rely on things that they already know about, and that work- therefore they talk more, to NPCs, to monsters, to each other. A revelation at times.</p><p> </p><p>At third level the players are by now pretty tooled up for skills and hit points, in other play-throughs I’ve had groups grind their way through the entire castle, more or less. This then was the smart play version, King Grol and his Drow/Doppleganger friend didn’t last long at all. Targor Bloodsword and his band of merry men allowed me to reciprocate, Hobgoblins can be smart too- kill Grol and go! At least one of the PCs was on board with that plan- thanks Elvis.</p><p></p><p>Oh, and the moral dilemma thing- in-game for a good while Myrium (Sandy) and Elvis (Jackie) have been in opposite corners with regard to how to play a situation; Myrium- nobody gets hurt, Elvis- kill ‘em all. This is the point when the sniping came out of the dark and in to the open, and once again the group spent a while trying to tear itself apart. On reflection a lot of this stuff is/was just growing pains, once the air had been cleared and everyone had their rant then it was back to business as usual.</p><p></p><p><strong>7) Wave Echo Cave & the Black Spider.</strong></p><p></p><p>The guys hated this place at first, mainly because everything they met seemed to be very dangerous, Jackie (Elvis) commented ‘it was like being first level again’, she clarified this statement comparing the first encounter- Goblin Ambush, with her encounter with the Stirges in Wave Echo Cave. In both encounters her PC was on the floor and unconscious by the end of the monster’s surprise round. Next up was the encounter with the Skeletons- nine of them, which also caused consternation. Then from there in to a fungi-filled chamber which looked/felt odd- in short, the guys were on the back foot from the get-go in Wave Echo Cave. It didn’t help that they had no idea where they were going, or that one of the Rockseeker brothers they had come to rescue was already dead in the first chamber. Pete (Gaukus) said later that he thought Wave Echo Cave was both more ‘grown-up’ and ‘bigger’- not just in its size, but also in the amount of ‘stuff’ there was to explore, or discover, or battle, or else just have to deal with. Sandy (Myrium) echoed his thoughts saying that there was ‘more going on here’, it was as if the PCs had wandered in to someone else’s action (the Black Spider, Mormesk the Wraith, Kevin the Spectator, Cecil the Nothic and the crazy Flameskull). The other parts of the adventure Rob (Shagga) stated were rated PG, Wave Echo Cave was an ‘18’, maybe a ‘15’ in places, but mostly ‘18’. </p><p></p><p>That said the PCs certainly had the wherewithal to stand toe-to-toe with a lot of the enemies, and the smarts (when needed) to resort to roleplay to get themselves out (or in) trouble when they wanted to. In short Wave Echo Cave proved to be an excellent climax, except for the fact that the Black Spider managed to escape them. Which is hardly surprising for keen observers of other fantasy fiction, if you have a half-decent villain then the potential for a sequel is high.</p><p></p><p>The Black Spider will be back, probably. </p><p> </p><p>That was Lost Mines of Phandalin, words of wisdom- read it thoroughly and then react to what your PCs are doing, or else what they want to do next. Don’t give away too much (plot) too soon. Make it last a for two or three tendays in-game time, not one tenday- slow burn, make the players scratch their heads a while.</p><p></p><p><strong>In conclusion-</strong></p><p>- Four PCs is tough, remarkably tough in comparison to when there’s five PCs in game, daft thing to say but I didn’t plan for this to begin with.</p><p>- If you have Noobs in-game then give them plenty of chances to get it right, the first encounters can easily prove to be fatal, play the Goblins semi-dumb if you have to.</p><p>- Don’t give the players too much info at the start, if they are desperate to find Gundren then a lot of the side quests in Phandalin can prove to be a distraction.</p><p>- Slow play at the start, crank the tension up bit by bit, let the guys settle in to Phandalin for a while maybe before bad things happen- bad things being the Redbrands.</p><p>- If the bid bad guys are smart then they should always be thinking that they want to survive this- the Black Spider, the Green Dragon in Thundertree, Glasstaff, King Grol etc. they’re not going to give their lives to the cause.</p><p>- Get the PCs talking, there are plenty of friendly NPCs in this adventure, and they come in all shapes and sizes, there are a couple of fantastic characters in Wave Echo Cave- the Spectator and Mormesk the Wraith, and earlier- Agartha the Banshee, (Cecil) the Nothic etc. make them shine. They should all get speaking parts.</p><p></p><p>Cheers Paul</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Goonalan, post: 7571886, member: 16069"] [CENTER][B]We D&D.[/B][/CENTER] [B]Lost Mine of Phandelver #14c Review.[/B] I just wanted to say a few words about the scenario, and the hits and misses I/we encountered along the way, also a chance to talk briefly about how the players handled things as they went along. The information presented here is not only my thoughts but also those of the players, I generally give out a short questionnaire/feedback sheet at the end of each adventure (or for larger adventures at the end of each chapter) to get the players to comment on the things they dis/liked et al. I’m a lecturer remember, it’s what we do and if we don’t do it ourselves then someone else (at work) will do it and they’ll have their own agenda. So, in the order it happened- [B]1) Goblin Ambush.[/B] Nice opening, if you play the goblins sneaky then this can be a hell of a tough fight- particularly if they get a surprise round and as with our group there are just four PCs in action- we had a PC unconscious and another on very few hit points after the goblin’s opening salvo. Likewise if one of the goblin buggers gets away and heads back to the lair to tell his friends then this too can prove fatal a little further along the track. If you like that kind of thing then that’s all good, if however (like me) you had a couple of noobs aboard then pull your punches. In fact when you’re playing the goblins- you’re probably going to have to pull your punches a lot, if you start using their Nimble Escape to its fullest then… well, things can get difficult for the PCs very quickly. The problems in our game came before this encounter, the guys (Pete & Rob) decided to play their PCs as… ‘difficult’, that’s the polite version of events, they conspired (seemingly) to piss off their other halves (the other two PCs), which almost broke the game in the first session. I am happy to report that by the end of the adventure harmony had been achieved, the fellers figured out that this particular adventure was about their partners having fun and finding out for themselves how the game they love works. Pete & Rob took a back seat for a majority of this scenario, allowing the ladies (the noobs) to make lots of decisions and lead the way. [B]2) Cragmaw Goblin Lair.[/B] Again, all good- I didn’t get a chance to pull the tsunami trap- obviously things went badly for the PCs here because Flint (Pete) decided to seek revenge for a previous play-through of this adventure. Foolishly (perhaps- you decide) I allowed him to do this. The weird thing is it almost worked, if the PCs had just managed to land a few more hits, or else stay on their feet a little longer then they would have won through. As it was we ended up with a 75% TPK. The problem with this section is how much of the plot to reveal, when (and if) the guys rescue Sildar then you (the glorious DM) have to decide how much to tell them about where Gundren is at, and what’s going on. I am of the opinion (in hindsight, and having played this scenario a few times) that it’s probably best not to tell the PCs too much- Gundren has been taken, where is he? Let them figure the rest out as they go on. The issue for us was that the PCs, after being told about the Black Spider et al by Sildar, were entirely concentrated on recovering their dwarven patron, which made what comes next a whole lot less exciting. Perhaps not less exciting, but certainly less to do with the overall plot, and therefore at times frustrating for the players. [B]3) Phandalin & the Redbrands Lair.[/B] Again, all good- although on reflection if I hadn’t had fired up the PCs with the quest to find their missing patron Gundren then this section would perhaps have been more engaging. Or else if the Redbrands themselves were more involved with the Black Spider’s plot to discover Wave Echo Cave. It didn’t help that the only creatures who knew more about the main plot- Droop the goblin, and Mosk and the bugbears, were either killed, or else fled the lair. In short the PCs had great fun (and were terrified in parts) by Cecil the Nothic, the fight with Glasstaff, and the rescue of Mirna and her kids- they loved all of this but it didn’t get them anywhere with the main plot. It was marvellous to see the amount of roleplaying going on, Sandy (Myrium) is a silver-tongued so-and-so (a teacher by trade) and thinks quickly on her feet, at times the other PCs just hung on and waited to see what she was going to come up with next. If I was to play it again then, as stated above, I’d give less of the main plot away in the Cragmaw Goblin lair, make things a lot more confused- where is Gundren? I’d also play the Redbrand sub-plot a lot slower, with a few encounters with the bad guys in Phandalin (bullying the residents et al) before the PCs decide to head in to their lair to kick ass. I’d also try to incorporate some more of the faction-based side quests that are available here (see below). [B]4) Phandalin faction-based side quests.[/B] I still can’t get these to work properly, as above if I had given less away at the start and played the Redbrands slower, then… maybe. I think the side quests need to be tied in better to the main plot, my suggestions are, and in the order I’d try to play them- a) Two dwarf miners kidnapped/taken by the Wyvern Tor Orcs, let the PCs believe (after interviewing other miners who witnessed the kidnapping) that the dwarves are Nundro and Tharden Rockseeker. Obviously, this will turn out to be untrue, the kidnapped dwarves are just miners, but they may know something- if the PCs manage to rescue them, perhaps the pair had a drink with Gundren before he departed for Neverwinter to hire the PCs. This could be the first time Wave Echo Cave is mentioned- Gundren let something slip while he was in his cups. b) Old Owl Well and the Red Wizard, in truth I like this side-quest as it is- it could be made to feel a little more relevant with reports of the Red Wizard poking around in the region, but… I’d leave it in and leave it be. I like to play the Red Wizard as chatty and have him debate the PCs- his zombie servitors keeping him safe in the wilds et al. c) Conyberry & Agatha’s Lair, again try to fold it in to the main plot- the PCs go here to help Sister Garaele, why not ham it up with a séance (or similar), or just have Agatha drop in to a trance and start mumbling stuff about ‘the lost Rockseeker’, or, ‘the dark elf seeker’, or… well, anything else semi-plot related that can give the PCs a clue as to what is going on. [B]5) The Ruins of Thundertree.[/B] The players loved this section, mainly because they were stuck for a good while and once they were given the name of Reidoth the Brown, and the fact that he knew where King Grol and the Cragmaw Goblins are laired, well… they were very keen to make the Druid’s acquaintance. It also helped that Thundertree had some of the grooviest villains the guys had encountered so far- Twig Blights, which proved to be weird but easy foes; Zombies with ash clouds; and by far the best- the Green Dragon and the Dragon Cultists. In-game the battle and roleplay with the Dragon Cultists played out really well and cumulated in the PCs pretending to be cultists in order to get close to the dragon. Simply put the PCs loved Thundertree- they also liked that they had to buy Reidoth’s favour by overcoming the foes here. Obviously, the conversion of the Dragon Cultists by Myrium also played well, of all of the events in this play-through this is by far the most repeated piece of in-game action, which is a refreshing change. [B]6) Cragmaw Castle & King Grol.[/B] At this point in our play-through the guys were starting to see better ways of doing things, i.e. not just barging in through the front door, in many ways I would have enjoyed the guys going toe-to-toe with the inhabitants of Cragmaw Castle, some titanic sprawling melee. I like to get good value for my bad guys, the PCs however were already displaying signs of being smarter than the average bears, and as good at roleplaying as they are fighting, if not better. Odd thought but when I DM mature players (ages 40+) and the group is not all male, then there’s lots more roleplay, I don’t have any proof for this statement, but it certainly appears to me to be the way of things. Thinking back, I’ve not DMed too many groups that have been 50% Male/Female, this may actually be a first. The noobs/ladies don’t have a firm grip on all of the rules (why would they), and so rely on things that they already know about, and that work- therefore they talk more, to NPCs, to monsters, to each other. A revelation at times. At third level the players are by now pretty tooled up for skills and hit points, in other play-throughs I’ve had groups grind their way through the entire castle, more or less. This then was the smart play version, King Grol and his Drow/Doppleganger friend didn’t last long at all. Targor Bloodsword and his band of merry men allowed me to reciprocate, Hobgoblins can be smart too- kill Grol and go! At least one of the PCs was on board with that plan- thanks Elvis. Oh, and the moral dilemma thing- in-game for a good while Myrium (Sandy) and Elvis (Jackie) have been in opposite corners with regard to how to play a situation; Myrium- nobody gets hurt, Elvis- kill ‘em all. This is the point when the sniping came out of the dark and in to the open, and once again the group spent a while trying to tear itself apart. On reflection a lot of this stuff is/was just growing pains, once the air had been cleared and everyone had their rant then it was back to business as usual. [B]7) Wave Echo Cave & the Black Spider.[/B] The guys hated this place at first, mainly because everything they met seemed to be very dangerous, Jackie (Elvis) commented ‘it was like being first level again’, she clarified this statement comparing the first encounter- Goblin Ambush, with her encounter with the Stirges in Wave Echo Cave. In both encounters her PC was on the floor and unconscious by the end of the monster’s surprise round. Next up was the encounter with the Skeletons- nine of them, which also caused consternation. Then from there in to a fungi-filled chamber which looked/felt odd- in short, the guys were on the back foot from the get-go in Wave Echo Cave. It didn’t help that they had no idea where they were going, or that one of the Rockseeker brothers they had come to rescue was already dead in the first chamber. Pete (Gaukus) said later that he thought Wave Echo Cave was both more ‘grown-up’ and ‘bigger’- not just in its size, but also in the amount of ‘stuff’ there was to explore, or discover, or battle, or else just have to deal with. Sandy (Myrium) echoed his thoughts saying that there was ‘more going on here’, it was as if the PCs had wandered in to someone else’s action (the Black Spider, Mormesk the Wraith, Kevin the Spectator, Cecil the Nothic and the crazy Flameskull). The other parts of the adventure Rob (Shagga) stated were rated PG, Wave Echo Cave was an ‘18’, maybe a ‘15’ in places, but mostly ‘18’. That said the PCs certainly had the wherewithal to stand toe-to-toe with a lot of the enemies, and the smarts (when needed) to resort to roleplay to get themselves out (or in) trouble when they wanted to. In short Wave Echo Cave proved to be an excellent climax, except for the fact that the Black Spider managed to escape them. Which is hardly surprising for keen observers of other fantasy fiction, if you have a half-decent villain then the potential for a sequel is high. The Black Spider will be back, probably. That was Lost Mines of Phandalin, words of wisdom- read it thoroughly and then react to what your PCs are doing, or else what they want to do next. Don’t give away too much (plot) too soon. Make it last a for two or three tendays in-game time, not one tenday- slow burn, make the players scratch their heads a while. [B]In conclusion-[/B] - Four PCs is tough, remarkably tough in comparison to when there’s five PCs in game, daft thing to say but I didn’t plan for this to begin with. - If you have Noobs in-game then give them plenty of chances to get it right, the first encounters can easily prove to be fatal, play the Goblins semi-dumb if you have to. - Don’t give the players too much info at the start, if they are desperate to find Gundren then a lot of the side quests in Phandalin can prove to be a distraction. - Slow play at the start, crank the tension up bit by bit, let the guys settle in to Phandalin for a while maybe before bad things happen- bad things being the Redbrands. - If the bid bad guys are smart then they should always be thinking that they want to survive this- the Black Spider, the Green Dragon in Thundertree, Glasstaff, King Grol etc. they’re not going to give their lives to the cause. - Get the PCs talking, there are plenty of friendly NPCs in this adventure, and they come in all shapes and sizes, there are a couple of fantastic characters in Wave Echo Cave- the Spectator and Mormesk the Wraith, and earlier- Agartha the Banshee, (Cecil) the Nothic etc. make them shine. They should all get speaking parts. Cheers Paul [/QUOTE]
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We D&D- Tyranny of Dragons Part 2: The Rise of Tiamat #24b Strike Team 1 Part 2 A Ton of Undead.
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