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<blockquote data-quote="Jester David" data-source="post: 7747868" data-attributes="member: 37579"><p>I think this might be the result of your perspective. </p><p>The game is doing well and more people are coming in that any time in recent history. That's exciting. It's not just new people, it's the sudden wave of new people: the fact the game is a hit with a new generation. It's not that they're valued more, just that their presence is an exciting sign for the health of the game. </p><p></p><p></p><p>There's nothing special about being an old gamer. You don't win any points for having gamed for longer. The hobby doesn't owe you anything. You don't get a medal for long service to the game. </p><p>Your prize was the time spent playing and the years of memories. </p><p></p><p></p><p>It's not just about the money. It's about the hobby <em>not </em>dying. </p><p>If there are no new players, then as the old gamers die or quit gaming the hobby shrinks. There's no shortage of older RPG systems that just are not played anymore. Or games in general. RPGs in general were a shrinking industry for a long time. </p><p>No one wants D&D or tabletop RPGs to go away. New people are always needed. </p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes, there IS a learning curve to the game. Yes, mistakes will be made and poor tactical choices will occur. That happens even with experienced players learning a new ruleset. It's frustrating and annoying, but it's a short term problem. The player learns and gets better.</p><p>That's covered in the main post. This is <em>literally</em> the point of the thread. </p><p></p><p>It's the job of the experienced players to help and mentor without being dicks and discouraging the player. And, yes, that means occasionally taking it easy on them. The exact same thing is said with every game. When you're teaching someone chess, you don't go all out and humiliate them, and you don't go for the crippling bodyblows when teaching someone a sport. You ease them in and eventually they learn to hold their own. And once you stop looking down at them for not knowing everything, they might surprise you with creative ideas. </p><p></p><p>If the experienced players cannot mentor and play nicely with a rookie, then they shouldn't be teaching. That group shouldn't invite new players. </p><p>But that's short term gain for longterm loss. Because taking a rookie under your wing and bringing them into the game means you have a new player who is taught your style of the game. You suffer for a few months of awkward gameplay but hopefully end up with a new player who views the game through the lens of your table. It's an investment. </p><p></p><p>There's a hell of a lot of judgement in your post. Looking down on a player for daring to choose a flavourful spell. For not playing the game in the correct way. (As if there was a correct way.)</p><p>But if the DM knew they were holding back a spell for desired circumstances, <strong>why didn't the DM work those circumstances into the game?</strong> That's DMing 101.</p><p></p><p></p><p>This assumes all web series are similar to Critical Role. They're not. There's a wide, wide variety of web series out there. </p><p></p><p>This also assumes that this is a new phenomena. That it's unique to the new generation (<em>oh those darn Millennials, ruining D&D with their streaming and their interwebs</em>).</p><p>It's not.</p><p>I came into the game with preconceived notions from Dragonlance novels and the D&D cartoon. Others might come in with assumptions based on <em>Lord of the Rings</em> or <em>Game of Thrones</em> (either the books or the adaptations), or the game <em>Dungeon!</em>, or video games like <em>Final Fantasy</em> or <em>Zork</em>. Perhaps <em>Record of Lodoss War</em>. Everyone has their biases. </p><p></p><p>And, yes this might mean the new player wants to play the game differently than you.</p><p>So what?</p><p>Guess what? <em>I</em> likely run the game differently from you as well. And when a player at my table takes a turn to run, they run it differently as well. We all give D&D our own spin. That theirs might be inspired or influenced by a streaming show is irrelevant, and doesn't make their style any less valid. </p><p>If a new player comes to your table and struggles with your style, that sucks but it's life. That's happened to me lots of times where "bad" groups form or awkward play occurs because of a personality class. The player either moves on and find a new group, or you compromise and find a middle ground in style. Not every player fits in with every group. </p><p>(The reverse has happened to me, where I've been the old grognard player at a table of newbies who were all stumbling over the rules and making stuff up because they couldn't remember how anything worked. And it's hard not to correct them all the time. It helps remind me what it feels like to be that newbie who's struggling over the nuances and making mistakes.)</p><p></p><p></p><p>What you seem to be describing sounds like the hipster's dilemma. </p><p>You have a cool band that no one else knows about, and its your special secret. But they they get discovered and everyone knows about them. And now you have to share the band with a larger audience. Gigs become less intimate and personal. Tickets are more expensive and harder to get. There's all these new fans who don't <em>know</em> the band like you do, who weren't supporting them in the early days.</p><p></p><p>You were playing D&D before it was cool. That doesn't give you the right to act as a gatekeeper for new players. And it doesn't mean these new players are less valid as fans.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Jester David, post: 7747868, member: 37579"] I think this might be the result of your perspective. The game is doing well and more people are coming in that any time in recent history. That's exciting. It's not just new people, it's the sudden wave of new people: the fact the game is a hit with a new generation. It's not that they're valued more, just that their presence is an exciting sign for the health of the game. There's nothing special about being an old gamer. You don't win any points for having gamed for longer. The hobby doesn't owe you anything. You don't get a medal for long service to the game. Your prize was the time spent playing and the years of memories. It's not just about the money. It's about the hobby [I]not [/I]dying. If there are no new players, then as the old gamers die or quit gaming the hobby shrinks. There's no shortage of older RPG systems that just are not played anymore. Or games in general. RPGs in general were a shrinking industry for a long time. No one wants D&D or tabletop RPGs to go away. New people are always needed. Yes, there IS a learning curve to the game. Yes, mistakes will be made and poor tactical choices will occur. That happens even with experienced players learning a new ruleset. It's frustrating and annoying, but it's a short term problem. The player learns and gets better. That's covered in the main post. This is [I]literally[/I] the point of the thread. It's the job of the experienced players to help and mentor without being dicks and discouraging the player. And, yes, that means occasionally taking it easy on them. The exact same thing is said with every game. When you're teaching someone chess, you don't go all out and humiliate them, and you don't go for the crippling bodyblows when teaching someone a sport. You ease them in and eventually they learn to hold their own. And once you stop looking down at them for not knowing everything, they might surprise you with creative ideas. If the experienced players cannot mentor and play nicely with a rookie, then they shouldn't be teaching. That group shouldn't invite new players. But that's short term gain for longterm loss. Because taking a rookie under your wing and bringing them into the game means you have a new player who is taught your style of the game. You suffer for a few months of awkward gameplay but hopefully end up with a new player who views the game through the lens of your table. It's an investment. There's a hell of a lot of judgement in your post. Looking down on a player for daring to choose a flavourful spell. For not playing the game in the correct way. (As if there was a correct way.) But if the DM knew they were holding back a spell for desired circumstances, [B]why didn't the DM work those circumstances into the game?[/B] That's DMing 101. This assumes all web series are similar to Critical Role. They're not. There's a wide, wide variety of web series out there. This also assumes that this is a new phenomena. That it's unique to the new generation ([I]oh those darn Millennials, ruining D&D with their streaming and their interwebs[/I]). It's not. I came into the game with preconceived notions from Dragonlance novels and the D&D cartoon. Others might come in with assumptions based on [I]Lord of the Rings[/I] or [I]Game of Thrones[/I] (either the books or the adaptations), or the game [I]Dungeon![/I], or video games like [I]Final Fantasy[/I] or [I]Zork[/I]. Perhaps [I]Record of Lodoss War[/I]. Everyone has their biases. And, yes this might mean the new player wants to play the game differently than you. So what? Guess what? [I]I[/I] likely run the game differently from you as well. And when a player at my table takes a turn to run, they run it differently as well. We all give D&D our own spin. That theirs might be inspired or influenced by a streaming show is irrelevant, and doesn't make their style any less valid. If a new player comes to your table and struggles with your style, that sucks but it's life. That's happened to me lots of times where "bad" groups form or awkward play occurs because of a personality class. The player either moves on and find a new group, or you compromise and find a middle ground in style. Not every player fits in with every group. (The reverse has happened to me, where I've been the old grognard player at a table of newbies who were all stumbling over the rules and making stuff up because they couldn't remember how anything worked. And it's hard not to correct them all the time. It helps remind me what it feels like to be that newbie who's struggling over the nuances and making mistakes.) What you seem to be describing sounds like the hipster's dilemma. You have a cool band that no one else knows about, and its your special secret. But they they get discovered and everyone knows about them. And now you have to share the band with a larger audience. Gigs become less intimate and personal. Tickets are more expensive and harder to get. There's all these new fans who don't [I]know[/I] the band like you do, who weren't supporting them in the early days. You were playing D&D before it was cool. That doesn't give you the right to act as a gatekeeper for new players. And it doesn't mean these new players are less valid as fans. [/QUOTE]
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