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Weapon/Implement Expertise: +1 to-hit?! Yuck!
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<blockquote data-quote="jgsugden" data-source="post: 4659846" data-attributes="member: 2629"><p>A couple points:</p><p></p><p>1.) Just to reiterate, we have not seen the full text of these feats, so there could be a trade off we're not seeing. A flat +1 to hit is a big deal, but maybe you're given up nearly as much in terms of an associated penalty.</p><p></p><p>2.) Diminishing returns =/= no value. Spending a weekend with 3 supermodels is less than spending the weekend with 4 supermodels, but it is still friggin awesome. Although there are aspects of diminishing returns to increased AB, any increase in AB is significant. And, there are also aspects of this that make it *more valuable* against tough foes.</p><p></p><p>In 4E, the roll needed to hit should range between a 3 (a foe 4 levels before you with low defenses (brute, etc...)) to 18 (a solo or elite foe 4 levels above you with a high defense (soldier, etc...)). This is not universally true, but it is a good approximation.</p><p></p><p>Let's say I do an average of 20 damage on a strike. If I need an 18 to hit normally, but this feat gives me a +1 better chance, I do an average of 1 point more damage per strike. In 4E, that would be an increase in expected damage of ~25% (average damage rising from about 3.5 to 4.5 when you factor in criticals). Against really tough foes, I'm going to do 25% more damage because of this feat.</p><p></p><p>Let's say we're on the other extreme. There, I'm still going to do an average of +1 more per attack, but that will increase my average damage from 18.5 to 19.5 - just over a 5% increase in damage per target per attack.</p><p></p><p>Meanwhile, a +1 increase to damage is going to be worth much less extra damage, because it only increases damage by 1 if I hit. If the foe has a really nasty defense, that +1 to damage only increases the average damage per attack by about .15 or .2 damage per target per attack. If the foe has a low defense, I am going to do closer to that full +1 damage, but I'll never get to a full +1 due to the way that critical hits work.</p><p></p><p>In other words, in all realistic ranges, as long as we're doing a substantial amount of damage, this feat will pretty much always be better at increasing average damage than a +1 to damage.</p><p></p><p>3.) If these feats are truly +1 with a weapon group / implement group with no drawback, I'm going to just give all PCs one of these feats as a bonus feat - that they can not retrain. I can adjust for it in encounter design, and I like the idea of PCs having specializtion. It also adds some meat to it, as a class like the paladin would still want to spend a feat to get the other one (implement expertise if they have weapon expertise) so that they can get their bonus with both weapons and implements.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="jgsugden, post: 4659846, member: 2629"] A couple points: 1.) Just to reiterate, we have not seen the full text of these feats, so there could be a trade off we're not seeing. A flat +1 to hit is a big deal, but maybe you're given up nearly as much in terms of an associated penalty. 2.) Diminishing returns =/= no value. Spending a weekend with 3 supermodels is less than spending the weekend with 4 supermodels, but it is still friggin awesome. Although there are aspects of diminishing returns to increased AB, any increase in AB is significant. And, there are also aspects of this that make it *more valuable* against tough foes. In 4E, the roll needed to hit should range between a 3 (a foe 4 levels before you with low defenses (brute, etc...)) to 18 (a solo or elite foe 4 levels above you with a high defense (soldier, etc...)). This is not universally true, but it is a good approximation. Let's say I do an average of 20 damage on a strike. If I need an 18 to hit normally, but this feat gives me a +1 better chance, I do an average of 1 point more damage per strike. In 4E, that would be an increase in expected damage of ~25% (average damage rising from about 3.5 to 4.5 when you factor in criticals). Against really tough foes, I'm going to do 25% more damage because of this feat. Let's say we're on the other extreme. There, I'm still going to do an average of +1 more per attack, but that will increase my average damage from 18.5 to 19.5 - just over a 5% increase in damage per target per attack. Meanwhile, a +1 increase to damage is going to be worth much less extra damage, because it only increases damage by 1 if I hit. If the foe has a really nasty defense, that +1 to damage only increases the average damage per attack by about .15 or .2 damage per target per attack. If the foe has a low defense, I am going to do closer to that full +1 damage, but I'll never get to a full +1 due to the way that critical hits work. In other words, in all realistic ranges, as long as we're doing a substantial amount of damage, this feat will pretty much always be better at increasing average damage than a +1 to damage. 3.) If these feats are truly +1 with a weapon group / implement group with no drawback, I'm going to just give all PCs one of these feats as a bonus feat - that they can not retrain. I can adjust for it in encounter design, and I like the idea of PCs having specializtion. It also adds some meat to it, as a class like the paladin would still want to spend a feat to get the other one (implement expertise if they have weapon expertise) so that they can get their bonus with both weapons and implements. [/QUOTE]
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