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<blockquote data-quote="Scott Christian" data-source="post: 9062438" data-attributes="member: 6901101"><p>Mostly agreed. They can be simpler than most classes, but not as simple as the champion. I was responding to the claims where people want to remove the champion style subclass.</p><p></p><p>Nothing, I have seen wizards do creative stuff with spells, and it boils down to DM's permission, just like it does with a champion that utilizes something in their environment. But there is a difference between the two: one specifically states what it can do (wizard spell), the other does not. Once you have a stated text, rules or flavor, I think what you will find is most players use the stated text as is. Some don't and that is cool. But most of the time when I see someone cast sleep, it is specifically to make a group of baddies sleep. Sure, the clever one uses it to put to sleep the orphan kids so they don't wake up when the battle wages outside their window. But, most, even if given that opportunity, do not. They think, how can I kill the aggressor, not how can I make sure these kids don't witness this. The reason is because the spells tell you to do this or that. </p><p></p><p>I am not going to throw any player under the bus, or wagon in this case, but based on my experience, I have never not seen it happen. Heck, even the so called "professionals" are constantly scanning their character sheets and resources for the things they can do. Now, take into account that:</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Many players just don't (or can't) memorize their character </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Players that decide they want to do "the best" thing so given how combat changes not per round, but per turn, they adjust and readjust, which might involve looking</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Some players face analysis paralysis</li> </ul><p>I think it's fair when you take these things into account that not all tables and players are the same. Heck, even one of the Critical Roll cast had to constantly look up their attack modifier - every single time. So it seems to me to be a very unfair statement that players should simply "know their stuff." Should they? Yes. Do most? No. </p><p></p><p>Of course they can deliver these things. The point is - some players choose to craft these more carefully. Most players can make a joke or come up with a line to say. In my experience, most players don't weave foreshadowing or directly tie it to their personality, bond, ideal, or flaw. For most, that takes some mental effort. As far as speeches go, I do not believe most players try to think of them while playing, and it often shows. But, if you give them a scenario and let them craft something - it shows. </p><p></p><p>That was the point.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Scott Christian, post: 9062438, member: 6901101"] Mostly agreed. They can be simpler than most classes, but not as simple as the champion. I was responding to the claims where people want to remove the champion style subclass. Nothing, I have seen wizards do creative stuff with spells, and it boils down to DM's permission, just like it does with a champion that utilizes something in their environment. But there is a difference between the two: one specifically states what it can do (wizard spell), the other does not. Once you have a stated text, rules or flavor, I think what you will find is most players use the stated text as is. Some don't and that is cool. But most of the time when I see someone cast sleep, it is specifically to make a group of baddies sleep. Sure, the clever one uses it to put to sleep the orphan kids so they don't wake up when the battle wages outside their window. But, most, even if given that opportunity, do not. They think, how can I kill the aggressor, not how can I make sure these kids don't witness this. The reason is because the spells tell you to do this or that. I am not going to throw any player under the bus, or wagon in this case, but based on my experience, I have never not seen it happen. Heck, even the so called "professionals" are constantly scanning their character sheets and resources for the things they can do. Now, take into account that: [LIST] [*]Many players just don't (or can't) memorize their character [*]Players that decide they want to do "the best" thing so given how combat changes not per round, but per turn, they adjust and readjust, which might involve looking [*]Some players face analysis paralysis [/LIST] I think it's fair when you take these things into account that not all tables and players are the same. Heck, even one of the Critical Roll cast had to constantly look up their attack modifier - every single time. So it seems to me to be a very unfair statement that players should simply "know their stuff." Should they? Yes. Do most? No. Of course they can deliver these things. The point is - some players choose to craft these more carefully. Most players can make a joke or come up with a line to say. In my experience, most players don't weave foreshadowing or directly tie it to their personality, bond, ideal, or flaw. For most, that takes some mental effort. As far as speeches go, I do not believe most players try to think of them while playing, and it often shows. But, if you give them a scenario and let them craft something - it shows. That was the point. [/QUOTE]
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