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Weekly Wrecana - Social Challenges (another 6 part)
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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 7063082" data-attributes="member: 82106"><p>I think you have to ask "what is Charisma?" It isn't looks, or being able to smooth talk. Its an intellectual sort of ability. It has to do with identifying with others and being able to work with them, or at least get them to do what you want. I think it adequately represents a logical argument, in some degree. </p><p></p><p>Anyway, I don't really agree with Wrecan's 'problem' here with Diplomacy/Bluff/Intimidate. His example about the gnolls was somewhat contrived, and it disregarded that 4e conflict resolution isn't a matter of a single check using a single skill. Sure, the guy with the high Bluff might be a better liar than diplomat. That doesn't make lying a viable option, and it doesn't mean Bluff SHOULD work in that situation. Nor do all characters need to be equally equipped to handle every skill challenge. Ideally they CAN contribute in some way, but the whole thing about 'Impress the king with my Endurance!' is silly. First of all, maybe that does make sense once in a while. Secondly, nobody has nothing but Endurance to work with, even dumb low WIS fighters have 3 good skills! And what if you really just have very little to contribute today? Its an SC, it will have about 10 die rolls in it. That's like one round of combat. Nobody is drastically shortchanged if they sit out a round of combat, happens all the time.</p><p></p><p>I think there's some useful advice here. OTOH when I tried to lay out social SCs like this, it failed miserably. For one thing I don't believe in narrowly framing most challenges, I would include a wider scope within the SC, to include planning, etc. within it. That way there's always going to be more of a variety of ways to deal with things.</p><p></p><p>Take the "Pet My Labyrinth" example of Wrecan's. Surely there's more ways to get into the catacombs than the front door! Surely if there are embarrassing things about the king, there's also more than one way to use that! Here's the real point. When you rigidly structure a challenge like this, with narrowly defined skills and approaches, you just create a mini-railroad. There's BASICALLY one way to do these examples. That means either the DM has to use force to get the party to do them that way, OR he's got to throw out his work when they don't, because no party I know of veteran players is going to do what you expect in this sort of situation. You need to take a much more flexible approach. I think Wrecan would see that too, but when you write about SCs its very easy to get way to academic about it, and write these little dry nugget things that you can't run as written.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 7063082, member: 82106"] I think you have to ask "what is Charisma?" It isn't looks, or being able to smooth talk. Its an intellectual sort of ability. It has to do with identifying with others and being able to work with them, or at least get them to do what you want. I think it adequately represents a logical argument, in some degree. Anyway, I don't really agree with Wrecan's 'problem' here with Diplomacy/Bluff/Intimidate. His example about the gnolls was somewhat contrived, and it disregarded that 4e conflict resolution isn't a matter of a single check using a single skill. Sure, the guy with the high Bluff might be a better liar than diplomat. That doesn't make lying a viable option, and it doesn't mean Bluff SHOULD work in that situation. Nor do all characters need to be equally equipped to handle every skill challenge. Ideally they CAN contribute in some way, but the whole thing about 'Impress the king with my Endurance!' is silly. First of all, maybe that does make sense once in a while. Secondly, nobody has nothing but Endurance to work with, even dumb low WIS fighters have 3 good skills! And what if you really just have very little to contribute today? Its an SC, it will have about 10 die rolls in it. That's like one round of combat. Nobody is drastically shortchanged if they sit out a round of combat, happens all the time. I think there's some useful advice here. OTOH when I tried to lay out social SCs like this, it failed miserably. For one thing I don't believe in narrowly framing most challenges, I would include a wider scope within the SC, to include planning, etc. within it. That way there's always going to be more of a variety of ways to deal with things. Take the "Pet My Labyrinth" example of Wrecan's. Surely there's more ways to get into the catacombs than the front door! Surely if there are embarrassing things about the king, there's also more than one way to use that! Here's the real point. When you rigidly structure a challenge like this, with narrowly defined skills and approaches, you just create a mini-railroad. There's BASICALLY one way to do these examples. That means either the DM has to use force to get the party to do them that way, OR he's got to throw out his work when they don't, because no party I know of veteran players is going to do what you expect in this sort of situation. You need to take a much more flexible approach. I think Wrecan would see that too, but when you write about SCs its very easy to get way to academic about it, and write these little dry nugget things that you can't run as written. [/QUOTE]
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