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What DM flaw has caused you to actually leave a game?
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<blockquote data-quote="machineelf" data-source="post: 7496859" data-attributes="member: 6774924"><p>I sort of agree with a lot of your perspective. However, where you may go wrong (and I say "may," because I'm enjoying this discussion and I'm interested in your response) is that you are making a delineation between the DM making assumptions on one hand with things like saving throws (a fireball is hurled at you. Make a saving throw. No I didn't wait to hear you say you wanted to dodge out of the way, because the assumption is that you do want to take that action of jumping out of the way) vs knowledge skill checks (you see a statue of a multi-armed figure. Make a intelligence-religion check, because the assumption is you have not turned off your brain and you are going to maybe know what this is). </p><p></p><p>I know that saving throws are for reactions to something that happens to you, and skill checks are generally for something you actively do. But not always, such as knowledge checks. They function much more like saving throws in a way. </p><p></p><p>In fact, saving throws are much more like skill checks than knowledge checks are, because you can choose not to dodge out of the way of a fireball if you want. Or you can choose to take that action; the assumption is you do. Surely the DM does not have to wait for you to explicitly say it before calling for a roll? Whether it is tagged with the noun "saving throw" or "skill check"? It seems the assumptions made or not made is where this argument lies. I don't think you can choose not to recall knowledge of a multi-armed God you've studied about when you see a statue with its likenesses. Your mind is reacting to the sight of that statue being presented to you.</p><p></p><p>Having said that, I do overall like the idea you are advocating, that DMs only call for skill rolls after a player states they want to attempt something. I just don't know how a character can know things ONLY if they actively try to know them and state it explicitly. That, to me, is the rub.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="machineelf, post: 7496859, member: 6774924"] I sort of agree with a lot of your perspective. However, where you may go wrong (and I say "may," because I'm enjoying this discussion and I'm interested in your response) is that you are making a delineation between the DM making assumptions on one hand with things like saving throws (a fireball is hurled at you. Make a saving throw. No I didn't wait to hear you say you wanted to dodge out of the way, because the assumption is that you do want to take that action of jumping out of the way) vs knowledge skill checks (you see a statue of a multi-armed figure. Make a intelligence-religion check, because the assumption is you have not turned off your brain and you are going to maybe know what this is). I know that saving throws are for reactions to something that happens to you, and skill checks are generally for something you actively do. But not always, such as knowledge checks. They function much more like saving throws in a way. In fact, saving throws are much more like skill checks than knowledge checks are, because you can choose not to dodge out of the way of a fireball if you want. Or you can choose to take that action; the assumption is you do. Surely the DM does not have to wait for you to explicitly say it before calling for a roll? Whether it is tagged with the noun "saving throw" or "skill check"? It seems the assumptions made or not made is where this argument lies. I don't think you can choose not to recall knowledge of a multi-armed God you've studied about when you see a statue with its likenesses. Your mind is reacting to the sight of that statue being presented to you. Having said that, I do overall like the idea you are advocating, that DMs only call for skill rolls after a player states they want to attempt something. I just don't know how a character can know things ONLY if they actively try to know them and state it explicitly. That, to me, is the rub. [/QUOTE]
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