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What DM flaw has caused you to actually leave a game?
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<blockquote data-quote="5ekyu" data-source="post: 7504622" data-attributes="member: 6919838"><p>I am not going to hun thru all the rules for all the various references but here is the section from ability scores that parallels the section you mentioned below.</p><p></p><p>"The DM calls for an ability check when a character or monster attempts an action (other than an attack) <strong>that has a chance of failure. When the outcome is uncertain, the dice determine the results.</strong>"</p><p></p><p>Both they and you agree the roll is required *when* the outcome is uncertain.</p><p></p><p>In logic this is a "necessary" statement... it is not however a necessary and sufficient statement.</p><p></p><p>it does not say that when a dice is rolled the outcome is uncertain... it says a dice will be rolled when the outcome is uncertain.</p><p></p><p>So if you have a situation where a player tells the Gm their outcome and the gm would tell them "it is certain" (either way) but the player rolls a die this rule and your statement above do not say that this roll now requires that "outcome is certain" decision be changed (either way.)</p><p></p><p>If the Gm chooses to rule that way - that the player die roll makes it uncertain (either way) thats the GM... not the rule.</p><p></p><p>If the Gm decides to rule another way - that the player die roll makes it uncertain (but only for adding failure to a certainty) that is the Gm choosing to punish the player for the roll.</p><p></p><p>if the Gm decides to ignore the roll and tell the player "it was certain regardless of the roll the result is..." thats being relatively fair.</p><p></p><p>If you are going to allow the player roll to add "uncertainty" when there "might have been certainty" do you as Gm follow that through to also alow it to make a 20 a success on what you would have deemed an auto-failure before the roll or do you choose to just push your "roll made me do it" when it is going to work against the player?</p><p></p><p>If you want to claim this is how the rules work, then please show where that division - a roll can force you to decide "not an auto-success" but cannot force you to decide "not an auto-fail" otherwise... its a house rule to only apply it one way with the presumption of "necessary and sufficient".</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="5ekyu, post: 7504622, member: 6919838"] I am not going to hun thru all the rules for all the various references but here is the section from ability scores that parallels the section you mentioned below. "The DM calls for an ability check when a character or monster attempts an action (other than an attack) [B]that has a chance of failure. When the outcome is uncertain, the dice determine the results.[/B]" Both they and you agree the roll is required *when* the outcome is uncertain. In logic this is a "necessary" statement... it is not however a necessary and sufficient statement. it does not say that when a dice is rolled the outcome is uncertain... it says a dice will be rolled when the outcome is uncertain. So if you have a situation where a player tells the Gm their outcome and the gm would tell them "it is certain" (either way) but the player rolls a die this rule and your statement above do not say that this roll now requires that "outcome is certain" decision be changed (either way.) If the Gm chooses to rule that way - that the player die roll makes it uncertain (either way) thats the GM... not the rule. If the Gm decides to rule another way - that the player die roll makes it uncertain (but only for adding failure to a certainty) that is the Gm choosing to punish the player for the roll. if the Gm decides to ignore the roll and tell the player "it was certain regardless of the roll the result is..." thats being relatively fair. If you are going to allow the player roll to add "uncertainty" when there "might have been certainty" do you as Gm follow that through to also alow it to make a 20 a success on what you would have deemed an auto-failure before the roll or do you choose to just push your "roll made me do it" when it is going to work against the player? If you want to claim this is how the rules work, then please show where that division - a roll can force you to decide "not an auto-success" but cannot force you to decide "not an auto-fail" otherwise... its a house rule to only apply it one way with the presumption of "necessary and sufficient". [/QUOTE]
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What DM flaw has caused you to actually leave a game?
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