Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
What DM flaw has caused you to actually leave a game?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Aldarc" data-source="post: 7508675" data-attributes="member: 5142"><p>Okay, cool. I likewise promise that I will show a similar willingness to listen in good faith. </p><p> </p><p>More or less. It may not be a case of not exploring hierarchical conflict, but a matter of which ones. A warlock player, for example, may not necessarily want a foreground exploration of their pact. They may be more interested in exploring the hierarchical conflict between themselves and their family. The pact may play a role in this relationship or ethically inform how the player understands this relationship, but the patron-warlock relationship would not be the primary focus of conflict. </p><p></p><p>Due to the nature of this forum, it can be a hurdle to backtrack the original context of discussion. So how would you paraphrase your own argumentative thrust about "hierarchical content in general"? That it can be and is often a source of narrative conflict? </p><p></p><p>You must definitely have, and I think that many of us in thread on various sides of this matter do recognize that about your position and respect that. </p><p></p><p>I would still say that these are issues that stem from the collaborative social contract nature of play that are essential parts of its nature. </p><p></p><p>That was me. But it was not, as you insist here, being done on the same basis. That's a false equivalence. Discussing these issues out-of-game is (1) how mature adults should handle most situations, and (2) it does not disrupt play (for the player and others!) by turning the game into a proxy battleground for an issue best settled between people. </p><p></p><p>I don't think it is necessarily the player saying, "I don't want to explore those specific thematic elements." In the case of the patron/deity, it seems more like a matter of the player signalling to the DM about how much desired authority and narrative prominence the DM can and will exert over this aspect of their character. The warlock player may want to explore the pact relationship in a manner that honors and respects their own sense for how that relationship should play out from their character-side perspective. They may want the pact relationship as a warlock, but not want that as a prominent narrative element, but, rather, one that informs their decision-making for the actual primary issues of the campaign. They may not want, for example, their patron popping out of the narrative bushes and dictating new terms of agreement on them, betraying them, operating in ways that the player believes mischaracterizes the patron or their relationship, etc. I think that a big part of the contention is that the patron/warlock or deity/cleric relationship has a certain intimacy or not too insignificant overlap in regards to the player's sense of their character concept. And the player may not want the DM to tread on that character concept via their use of the patron/deity.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Aldarc, post: 7508675, member: 5142"] Okay, cool. I likewise promise that I will show a similar willingness to listen in good faith. More or less. It may not be a case of not exploring hierarchical conflict, but a matter of which ones. A warlock player, for example, may not necessarily want a foreground exploration of their pact. They may be more interested in exploring the hierarchical conflict between themselves and their family. The pact may play a role in this relationship or ethically inform how the player understands this relationship, but the patron-warlock relationship would not be the primary focus of conflict. Due to the nature of this forum, it can be a hurdle to backtrack the original context of discussion. So how would you paraphrase your own argumentative thrust about "hierarchical content in general"? That it can be and is often a source of narrative conflict? You must definitely have, and I think that many of us in thread on various sides of this matter do recognize that about your position and respect that. I would still say that these are issues that stem from the collaborative social contract nature of play that are essential parts of its nature. That was me. But it was not, as you insist here, being done on the same basis. That's a false equivalence. Discussing these issues out-of-game is (1) how mature adults should handle most situations, and (2) it does not disrupt play (for the player and others!) by turning the game into a proxy battleground for an issue best settled between people. I don't think it is necessarily the player saying, "I don't want to explore those specific thematic elements." In the case of the patron/deity, it seems more like a matter of the player signalling to the DM about how much desired authority and narrative prominence the DM can and will exert over this aspect of their character. The warlock player may want to explore the pact relationship in a manner that honors and respects their own sense for how that relationship should play out from their character-side perspective. They may want the pact relationship as a warlock, but not want that as a prominent narrative element, but, rather, one that informs their decision-making for the actual primary issues of the campaign. They may not want, for example, their patron popping out of the narrative bushes and dictating new terms of agreement on them, betraying them, operating in ways that the player believes mischaracterizes the patron or their relationship, etc. I think that a big part of the contention is that the patron/warlock or deity/cleric relationship has a certain intimacy or not too insignificant overlap in regards to the player's sense of their character concept. And the player may not want the DM to tread on that character concept via their use of the patron/deity. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
What DM flaw has caused you to actually leave a game?
Top