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What DM flaw has caused you to actually leave a game?
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7509481" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>You focus on things that I haven't mentioned (but presumably are important to you).</p><p></p><p>I've not said anything about forewarning (or otherwise). I've said that I don't see what it adds to the game for the GM to try to direct the players play of his/her PC by dictating what the god/patron wants as something different from what the player would otherwise have that be.</p><p></p><p>This is independent of whether the god is a NPC. Suppose the god <em>is</em> a NPC - that doesn't tell us what the GM should have the god do vis-a-vis the player's PC.</p><p></p><p>I don't know, but what does that have to do with this thread? I'm not talking about a cleric who tells her deity to sod off. I'm talking about a <em>player</em> who has a view of what loyalty to his/her PC's god demands; and am asking what it adds to the game for the GM to contradict that view.</p><p></p><p>Surely the difference between these two things is obvious.</p><p></p><p>The second is some character-relative flavouring of the challenges that it is the job of the GM to put before the PCs (and, thereby, their players),.</p><p></p><p>The first is the GM directing the player in the play of their PC.</p><p></p><p>And [MENTION=48965]Imaro[/MENTION]: if my conception of my player is as having a loving family waiting upon the PC's return from the quest, and you as GM decide unilaterally that in fact my father is a serial killer, you've brutally overridden my conception of my character. You, personally, may think that people are in no way defined by their relationships. I, with the vast weight of historical and sociological scholarship as well as common sense on my side, disagree.</p><p></p><p>And [MENTION=5142]Aldarc[/MENTION]: you description of cleric play is quite consonant with my own experiences as player and GM. The idea that a PC's values, faith etc won't manifest in play unless the GM is there playing a god or patron as a "sockpuppet" is ludicrous. It's enough to point to the vast quantities of literature and film in which character's faith manifests itself although God never appears in the story. I find The End of the Affair a particularly striking example.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7509481, member: 42582"] You focus on things that I haven't mentioned (but presumably are important to you). I've not said anything about forewarning (or otherwise). I've said that I don't see what it adds to the game for the GM to try to direct the players play of his/her PC by dictating what the god/patron wants as something different from what the player would otherwise have that be. This is independent of whether the god is a NPC. Suppose the god [I]is[/I] a NPC - that doesn't tell us what the GM should have the god do vis-a-vis the player's PC. I don't know, but what does that have to do with this thread? I'm not talking about a cleric who tells her deity to sod off. I'm talking about a [I]player[/I] who has a view of what loyalty to his/her PC's god demands; and am asking what it adds to the game for the GM to contradict that view. Surely the difference between these two things is obvious. The second is some character-relative flavouring of the challenges that it is the job of the GM to put before the PCs (and, thereby, their players),. The first is the GM directing the player in the play of their PC. And [MENTION=48965]Imaro[/MENTION]: if my conception of my player is as having a loving family waiting upon the PC's return from the quest, and you as GM decide unilaterally that in fact my father is a serial killer, you've brutally overridden my conception of my character. You, personally, may think that people are in no way defined by their relationships. I, with the vast weight of historical and sociological scholarship as well as common sense on my side, disagree. And [MENTION=5142]Aldarc[/MENTION]: you description of cleric play is quite consonant with my own experiences as player and GM. The idea that a PC's values, faith etc won't manifest in play unless the GM is there playing a god or patron as a "sockpuppet" is ludicrous. It's enough to point to the vast quantities of literature and film in which character's faith manifests itself although God never appears in the story. I find The End of the Affair a particularly striking example. [/QUOTE]
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What DM flaw has caused you to actually leave a game?
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