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What do you consider the quintessential knight in shinning armor?
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<blockquote data-quote="hong" data-source="post: 180171" data-attributes="member: 537"><p>If what you mean is that Saladin was a skilful and crafty diplomat and negotiator, that's entirely true.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I see. So despite his sparing Jerusalem's Christian inhabitants in 1187 (in stark contrast to the Crusaders' behaviour at the culmination of the First Crusade), Saladin REALLY WAS a bad guy at heart. The last time I heard an argument along these lines, I think the other guy was trying to convince me that the greys REALLY DO control the government, it's just covered up.</p><p></p><p>Naturally, I expect you to dismiss the following passages as yet more evidence of the cover-up:</p><p></p><p>"It is equally true that his generosity, his piety, devoid of fanaticism, that flower of liberality and courtesy which had been the model of our old chroniclers, won him no less popularity in Frankish Syria than in the lands of Islam" [Rene Grousse]</p><p></p><p>"The character of Saladin and of his work is singularly vivid. In many ways he was a typical Mahommedan, fiercely hostile towards unbelievers -- "Let us purge the air of the air they breathe" was his aim for the demons of the Cross, -- intensely devout and regular in prayers and fasting. He showed the pride of race in the declaration that "God reserved this triumph for the Ayyubites before all others." His generosity and hospitality were proved in his gifts to Richard and his treatment of captives. He had the Oriental's power of endurance, alternating with violent and emotional courage. Other virtues were all his own, his extreme gentleness, his love for children, his flawless honesty, his invariable kindliness, his chivalry to women and the weak. Above all he typifies the Mahommedan’s utter selfsurrender to a sacred cause." [Encyclopedia Britannica]</p><p></p><p>You might also want to consult some actual historical sources and biographies of the man before allowing your credibility to recede further:</p><p></p><p>Brundage, J.A., 1962, The crusades - a documentary survey, The Marquette University Press, Milwaukee. </p><p></p><p>Lane-Poole, S., 1964, Saladin and the fall of the kingdom of Jerusalem, Khayats, Beirut. </p><p></p><p>Regan, G., 1987, Saladin and the fall of Jerusalem, Croon Helm, London.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>In your very first sentence, you said that Saladin did things that might be considered dubious by today's standards. For some reason, this means Saladin is worthy of condemnation, and yet when Jefferson does the same, he becomes a man of "complex political ideals". I say, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>In the context of an ongoing conflict in the Middle East, it's natural that references will be made to past military leaders on both sides of the conflict. This doesn't negate the reputation that Saladin had, and still has, as an exemplar of Christian and Muslim virtues. His standing even in medieval times transcended religious and national boundaries.</p><p></p><p>Furthermore, how exactly does what happens in the world today reflect on Saladin's character, 900 years ago?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="hong, post: 180171, member: 537"] If what you mean is that Saladin was a skilful and crafty diplomat and negotiator, that's entirely true. I see. So despite his sparing Jerusalem's Christian inhabitants in 1187 (in stark contrast to the Crusaders' behaviour at the culmination of the First Crusade), Saladin REALLY WAS a bad guy at heart. The last time I heard an argument along these lines, I think the other guy was trying to convince me that the greys REALLY DO control the government, it's just covered up. Naturally, I expect you to dismiss the following passages as yet more evidence of the cover-up: "It is equally true that his generosity, his piety, devoid of fanaticism, that flower of liberality and courtesy which had been the model of our old chroniclers, won him no less popularity in Frankish Syria than in the lands of Islam" [Rene Grousse] "The character of Saladin and of his work is singularly vivid. In many ways he was a typical Mahommedan, fiercely hostile towards unbelievers -- "Let us purge the air of the air they breathe" was his aim for the demons of the Cross, -- intensely devout and regular in prayers and fasting. He showed the pride of race in the declaration that "God reserved this triumph for the Ayyubites before all others." His generosity and hospitality were proved in his gifts to Richard and his treatment of captives. He had the Oriental's power of endurance, alternating with violent and emotional courage. Other virtues were all his own, his extreme gentleness, his love for children, his flawless honesty, his invariable kindliness, his chivalry to women and the weak. Above all he typifies the Mahommedan’s utter selfsurrender to a sacred cause." [Encyclopedia Britannica] You might also want to consult some actual historical sources and biographies of the man before allowing your credibility to recede further: Brundage, J.A., 1962, The crusades - a documentary survey, The Marquette University Press, Milwaukee. Lane-Poole, S., 1964, Saladin and the fall of the kingdom of Jerusalem, Khayats, Beirut. Regan, G., 1987, Saladin and the fall of Jerusalem, Croon Helm, London. In your very first sentence, you said that Saladin did things that might be considered dubious by today's standards. For some reason, this means Saladin is worthy of condemnation, and yet when Jefferson does the same, he becomes a man of "complex political ideals". I say, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. In the context of an ongoing conflict in the Middle East, it's natural that references will be made to past military leaders on both sides of the conflict. This doesn't negate the reputation that Saladin had, and still has, as an exemplar of Christian and Muslim virtues. His standing even in medieval times transcended religious and national boundaries. Furthermore, how exactly does what happens in the world today reflect on Saladin's character, 900 years ago? [/QUOTE]
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What do you consider the quintessential knight in shinning armor?
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