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What do you consider the quintessential knight in shinning armor?
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<blockquote data-quote="hong" data-source="post: 181132" data-attributes="member: 537"><p>It's only a long-standing convention among many D&D players that paladins must be holy warriors. Even the 3E rules themselves don't require this; all that matters is that they be devoted to righteousness. Righteousness may overlap with religion, but it certainly isn't the same thing. Certainly not to me, at any rate.</p><p></p><p>Let's take a character like Ogier the Dane (or Holger Carlsen in _Three Hearts and Three Lions_), who you say is a quintessential paladin. I don't think there's anything about what Ogier fundamentally represents, that revolves around religion as such. In the stories he fights for Christianity and makes war on infidels, but that's more an artifact of how Carolingian society viewed religion as an inseparable part of the national identity.</p><p></p><p>As I see it, Ogier (and Roland, and Galahad, et al) is basically becomes a warrior who fights for righteousness, as viewed through that particular lens. In other words, he encapsulates the heroic ideal, as that ideal was seen by the society of the time. Therefore, <em>only if the society that you want to portray in your game views religion like the Carolingians did,</em> should you assume that the religious component is an essential part of paladinhood. I would bet that most D&D campaigns don't meld religion and society in this way. In this case, there's no reason for paladins in such societies to be particularly religious either.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Here comes the great difficulty of judging historical characters by modern standards. No-one, I think, disagrees that ransoming captives is wrong today. By the standards of the time, however, what Saladin did was praiseworthy, certainly to the Christians themselves.</p><p></p><p>Recall also the context in which the recapture of Jerusalem occurred. The Crusaders had carried out murderous purges in the cities they captured, driven out most of the Muslims, and set up effectively an armed occupation. All this occurred barely 88 years ago, so it would have been quite understandable had Saladin replied in kind. The fact that he didn't is what cemented his reputation in Palestine and abroad.</p><p></p><p>Indeed, your comment about a mugger leaving his victims enough for bus fare home is remarkably apt. From the Muslim point of view, the Crusaders were the muggers, and Saladin was liberating territory taken from them unjustly (anyone who believes the First Crusade was anything more than a political play and a land grab is naive). You've just applied the metaphor to the wrong side. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="hong, post: 181132, member: 537"] It's only a long-standing convention among many D&D players that paladins must be holy warriors. Even the 3E rules themselves don't require this; all that matters is that they be devoted to righteousness. Righteousness may overlap with religion, but it certainly isn't the same thing. Certainly not to me, at any rate. Let's take a character like Ogier the Dane (or Holger Carlsen in _Three Hearts and Three Lions_), who you say is a quintessential paladin. I don't think there's anything about what Ogier fundamentally represents, that revolves around religion as such. In the stories he fights for Christianity and makes war on infidels, but that's more an artifact of how Carolingian society viewed religion as an inseparable part of the national identity. As I see it, Ogier (and Roland, and Galahad, et al) is basically becomes a warrior who fights for righteousness, as viewed through that particular lens. In other words, he encapsulates the heroic ideal, as that ideal was seen by the society of the time. Therefore, [i]only if the society that you want to portray in your game views religion like the Carolingians did,[/i] should you assume that the religious component is an essential part of paladinhood. I would bet that most D&D campaigns don't meld religion and society in this way. In this case, there's no reason for paladins in such societies to be particularly religious either. Here comes the great difficulty of judging historical characters by modern standards. No-one, I think, disagrees that ransoming captives is wrong today. By the standards of the time, however, what Saladin did was praiseworthy, certainly to the Christians themselves. Recall also the context in which the recapture of Jerusalem occurred. The Crusaders had carried out murderous purges in the cities they captured, driven out most of the Muslims, and set up effectively an armed occupation. All this occurred barely 88 years ago, so it would have been quite understandable had Saladin replied in kind. The fact that he didn't is what cemented his reputation in Palestine and abroad. Indeed, your comment about a mugger leaving his victims enough for bus fare home is remarkably apt. From the Muslim point of view, the Crusaders were the muggers, and Saladin was liberating territory taken from them unjustly (anyone who believes the First Crusade was anything more than a political play and a land grab is naive). You've just applied the metaphor to the wrong side. :) [/QUOTE]
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What do you consider the quintessential knight in shinning armor?
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