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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
What Do You prefer 1E vs 2E
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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 9204186" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>My first response to all of your anecdotes is always to note that you are using such a heavily house ruled system that any comparison to RAW 1e AD&D is suspect. I mean, I've learned tangentially almost nothing about your game is in any way close to the rules of 1e AD&D.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This is what I mean about the thief being a "tier 7" class. Because ostensibly based on character class design you'd think that this is what being a thief is about - sneaking, scouting, spying, searching, etc.</p><p></p><p>Except that you are never at any point in your career any good at any of those things. At lower levels you skills are so unreliable that it is a trap to ever try to use them. You have a less than 50% chance of success on things that you probably shouldn't attempt until you have a 75% or better chance of success. No matter what you try, it would be better if some other class were doing it, because at least if they failed they'd survive the failure. Where as you have terrible saves, terrible hit points, and no skills.</p><p></p><p>At higher levels when your skills start to become reliable enough to use, all you are doing is saving the party a single spell slot or wand activation. The number of spell slots you save per day as a high level thief is less than the number of spell slots available to an equivalent level M-U or Cleric, and as those classes also add other utility to the party and are good in situations where sneaking or scouting or spying or whatever isn't an option then the party would always be better off if you were playing a different class. Worse, those other classes are better at sneaking and so forth than you are. You'd be better off with Invisibility, Find Traps, Silence 15' Radius, Fly, Levitation, Clairvoyance, Augury, Find the Path, Spider Climb, and a wand of secret door and trap detection 100% of the time because spells are reliable in ways that your thief skills just aren't. The M-U or Cleric is a better spy or scout than you are.</p><p></p><p>Worse, you aren't really even the skill monkey, as if you are using 1e/2e's ad hoc skill system of "non-weapon proficiencies" you'll find you get the fewest additional skills of anyone in the party. And NWP's are relatively more reliable than thief skills at most levels of play.</p><p></p><p>Having a lot of experience playing a 1e thief, most of the time as a good thief player you are relying on your role-playing ability, ability to imagine and interact with the imagined setting, and ability to DM wheedle. That is you are relying on your skill as a player, and not on your skill as a character.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 9204186, member: 4937"] My first response to all of your anecdotes is always to note that you are using such a heavily house ruled system that any comparison to RAW 1e AD&D is suspect. I mean, I've learned tangentially almost nothing about your game is in any way close to the rules of 1e AD&D. This is what I mean about the thief being a "tier 7" class. Because ostensibly based on character class design you'd think that this is what being a thief is about - sneaking, scouting, spying, searching, etc. Except that you are never at any point in your career any good at any of those things. At lower levels you skills are so unreliable that it is a trap to ever try to use them. You have a less than 50% chance of success on things that you probably shouldn't attempt until you have a 75% or better chance of success. No matter what you try, it would be better if some other class were doing it, because at least if they failed they'd survive the failure. Where as you have terrible saves, terrible hit points, and no skills. At higher levels when your skills start to become reliable enough to use, all you are doing is saving the party a single spell slot or wand activation. The number of spell slots you save per day as a high level thief is less than the number of spell slots available to an equivalent level M-U or Cleric, and as those classes also add other utility to the party and are good in situations where sneaking or scouting or spying or whatever isn't an option then the party would always be better off if you were playing a different class. Worse, those other classes are better at sneaking and so forth than you are. You'd be better off with Invisibility, Find Traps, Silence 15' Radius, Fly, Levitation, Clairvoyance, Augury, Find the Path, Spider Climb, and a wand of secret door and trap detection 100% of the time because spells are reliable in ways that your thief skills just aren't. The M-U or Cleric is a better spy or scout than you are. Worse, you aren't really even the skill monkey, as if you are using 1e/2e's ad hoc skill system of "non-weapon proficiencies" you'll find you get the fewest additional skills of anyone in the party. And NWP's are relatively more reliable than thief skills at most levels of play. Having a lot of experience playing a 1e thief, most of the time as a good thief player you are relying on your role-playing ability, ability to imagine and interact with the imagined setting, and ability to DM wheedle. That is you are relying on your skill as a player, and not on your skill as a character. [/QUOTE]
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