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What does it mean to "Challenge the Character"?
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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 7601925" data-attributes="member: 996"><p>So, I think the following would unambiguously follow a typical interpretation of the basic rules you & I are always touting:</p><p></p><p>DM: Count Mephisto descends the grand staircase, fixing you with a malevolent gaze, … blah... blah, lotsa cool dramatic stuff but not a huge amount of detail about the environment.</p><p>Player: Does the room have a chandelier?</p><p>DM: Er, sure, yeah, it's a grand ballroom, our campaign's a trifle anachronistic.</p><p>Player: How high is it.</p><p>DM: Well, the ceilings 18' and the chandelier is, oh 4 or 5' from top to lowest elements, and the chain it's on would be similar, so maybe about 8' off the ground.</p><p>Player: so if I were to swing on it, I'd be working with a 10'r arc. and could get up onto the staircase where the count is?</p><p>DM: You could attempt it.</p><p>Player: Ok, I'm going to take a running leap, swing on the chandelier, and attack the Count!</p><p></p><p>(Cheesy, I know, but bear with me.)</p><p></p><p>Now, what I was getting at was a DM who would not only tolerate, but encourage or even require, in a systematic way, the alternate:</p><p></p><p>DM: Count Mephisto descends the grand staircase, fixing you with a malevolent gaze, … blah... blah, lotsa cool dramatic stuff but not a huge amount of detail about the environment.</p><p>Player: I'm going to take a running leap, swing on the Grand Ballroom's chandelier*, and attack the Count right on the stair! </p><p></p><p>The rules don't, for an instance near & dear to your heart, spell out that the player must provide a goal & method in declaring an action. That's filling in what the DM expects from the player declaring an action, it formalizes that segment of play a bit. But it's not changing the rules. </p><p></p><p>DMs could take their interpretation or formalization of action declaration in different ways. A DM could, as above, tolerate (or even require) the players to add to the scene as part of a formal/valid action declaration. He could require the Player nominate a stat & skill he intends to use in the action. He could require a declared weapon/tool/implement/environmental feature be engaged in any valid action (I'm not sure why, but he /could/). Limits are the DM's imagination (and ego, and sheer unmitigated gall), and the players' willingness/ability to find an alternate DM. ;P</p><p></p><p>Ultimately, 5e's written in natural language and leaves it to the DM to interpret the rules, even the most basic of 'em. Those rules put a /lot/ of 'power'/responsibility on the DM, but they in no way dissuade him from delegating bits of it to the players, formally or informally, systematically or on the spur of the moment. </p><p></p><p>As far as the line between interpreting and changing a rule: it's moot. It's the DM's game. If a DM changes a rule and calls it an a interpretation, it's an interpretation, if he interprets a rule in a fairly conventional way, but lists it as a variant it's a change.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Thanks!</p><p></p><p></p><p>Nod. OTOH, there's no way any such pre-game establishment of backstory could cover every detail of the character & his connection to the world. DMs don't set their worlds in stone in every detail before play begins, if a new aspect of the world is revealed that may have had some bearing on the PC's backstories, that might be seen as re-opening that collaborative effort.</p><p></p><p>FREX: The DM might have established that the campaign-home-Kingdom has fought many wars with it's neighbor, Nepharia, and that a player may have established that his father was killed in one of those most recent wars. Now, if the DM later introduces a powerful Nepharian champion renowned for his death toll on the battlefield of the last war, the player might just come up with the idea that it was /that/ villain who killed his father. Instant retcon vendetta. (Hey, it's not like stuff like that doesn't happen in fiction!)</p><p></p><p>If the DM is very proprietary about control of the details of his setting, then the player might introduce that idea with a series of leading questions:</p><p></p><p>Player: If he's such a great hero, how come we've never heard of him before.</p><p>DM: Oh, you've heard of him all your lives, he's infamous.</p><p>Player: And he fought in the most recent war?</p><p>DM: Yep, renowned for his savagery and sheer body count on the field.</p><p>Player: Did he fight in all the battles of that war?</p><p>DM: All the major ones, he was seen as virtually invincible.</p><p>Player: Including the battle where my father was killed?</p><p>DM: Definitely.</p><p>Player: Could he be the one who killed my father?</p><p></p><p>(And the DM could totally roll with it: /Yes/, that's the family story. And, now, looking at him, you can believe it.</p><p>or not: No, you remember the king's messenger saying your father took an arrow to the heart, this guy's strictly a melee type.)</p><p></p><p>A DM with a different style might be so inclined to roll with such ideas that his players realize they don't have to resort to leading questions to get an idea in there. He may even be up-front an encourage it. Maybe give inspiration for RPing that instant vendetta without even clearing it first.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 7601925, member: 996"] So, I think the following would unambiguously follow a typical interpretation of the basic rules you & I are always touting: DM: Count Mephisto descends the grand staircase, fixing you with a malevolent gaze, … blah... blah, lotsa cool dramatic stuff but not a huge amount of detail about the environment. Player: Does the room have a chandelier? DM: Er, sure, yeah, it's a grand ballroom, our campaign's a trifle anachronistic. Player: How high is it. DM: Well, the ceilings 18' and the chandelier is, oh 4 or 5' from top to lowest elements, and the chain it's on would be similar, so maybe about 8' off the ground. Player: so if I were to swing on it, I'd be working with a 10'r arc. and could get up onto the staircase where the count is? DM: You could attempt it. Player: Ok, I'm going to take a running leap, swing on the chandelier, and attack the Count! (Cheesy, I know, but bear with me.) Now, what I was getting at was a DM who would not only tolerate, but encourage or even require, in a systematic way, the alternate: DM: Count Mephisto descends the grand staircase, fixing you with a malevolent gaze, … blah... blah, lotsa cool dramatic stuff but not a huge amount of detail about the environment. Player: I'm going to take a running leap, swing on the Grand Ballroom's chandelier*, and attack the Count right on the stair! The rules don't, for an instance near & dear to your heart, spell out that the player must provide a goal & method in declaring an action. That's filling in what the DM expects from the player declaring an action, it formalizes that segment of play a bit. But it's not changing the rules. DMs could take their interpretation or formalization of action declaration in different ways. A DM could, as above, tolerate (or even require) the players to add to the scene as part of a formal/valid action declaration. He could require the Player nominate a stat & skill he intends to use in the action. He could require a declared weapon/tool/implement/environmental feature be engaged in any valid action (I'm not sure why, but he /could/). Limits are the DM's imagination (and ego, and sheer unmitigated gall), and the players' willingness/ability to find an alternate DM. ;P Ultimately, 5e's written in natural language and leaves it to the DM to interpret the rules, even the most basic of 'em. Those rules put a /lot/ of 'power'/responsibility on the DM, but they in no way dissuade him from delegating bits of it to the players, formally or informally, systematically or on the spur of the moment. As far as the line between interpreting and changing a rule: it's moot. It's the DM's game. If a DM changes a rule and calls it an a interpretation, it's an interpretation, if he interprets a rule in a fairly conventional way, but lists it as a variant it's a change. Thanks! Nod. OTOH, there's no way any such pre-game establishment of backstory could cover every detail of the character & his connection to the world. DMs don't set their worlds in stone in every detail before play begins, if a new aspect of the world is revealed that may have had some bearing on the PC's backstories, that might be seen as re-opening that collaborative effort. FREX: The DM might have established that the campaign-home-Kingdom has fought many wars with it's neighbor, Nepharia, and that a player may have established that his father was killed in one of those most recent wars. Now, if the DM later introduces a powerful Nepharian champion renowned for his death toll on the battlefield of the last war, the player might just come up with the idea that it was /that/ villain who killed his father. Instant retcon vendetta. (Hey, it's not like stuff like that doesn't happen in fiction!) If the DM is very proprietary about control of the details of his setting, then the player might introduce that idea with a series of leading questions: Player: If he's such a great hero, how come we've never heard of him before. DM: Oh, you've heard of him all your lives, he's infamous. Player: And he fought in the most recent war? DM: Yep, renowned for his savagery and sheer body count on the field. Player: Did he fight in all the battles of that war? DM: All the major ones, he was seen as virtually invincible. Player: Including the battle where my father was killed? DM: Definitely. Player: Could he be the one who killed my father? (And the DM could totally roll with it: /Yes/, that's the family story. And, now, looking at him, you can believe it. or not: No, you remember the king's messenger saying your father took an arrow to the heart, this guy's strictly a melee type.) A DM with a different style might be so inclined to roll with such ideas that his players realize they don't have to resort to leading questions to get an idea in there. He may even be up-front an encourage it. Maybe give inspiration for RPing that instant vendetta without even clearing it first. [/QUOTE]
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