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What Games do you think are Neotrad?
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<blockquote data-quote="Ruin Explorer" data-source="post: 9312937" data-attributes="member: 18"><p>Interesting point re: "superheroes with fangs", because I don't think there's anything inherent about that which would suggest <em>to me</em> a dilution of DM authority, more player input, nor necessarily OC culture nor realizing player aspirations particularly. What is it you feel about that playstyle that makes it NeoTrad? I'm especially interested because this playstyle has existed for as long as Vampire has existed (arguably longer but some of the earlier supernatural being in a modern setting games were more intentionally superheroic). My brother and I first ran Vampire in like, 1992 or so, and immediately engaged with it in a way that was more "superheroes with fangs" than anything else (I suspect our ages - 12 and 14 - factored in, but I don't think that was uncommon).</p><p></p><p>For me, "superheroes with fangs" is a subversion of what the <em>designers</em> allegedly wanted from the game (albeit, often so extremely workable within the rules and even apparent intention, though, that it's hard to argue it was <em>entirely</em> unintended - plus I'm not sure the difference between Lestat and Magneto or Louis and, say, '80s/'90s takes on Angel is necessarily as huge as some people might imagine). Certainly playing in games like that at the time, we didn't see the Storyteller's role as diminished in any way, nor our characters as "OCs" or wish-fulfilment any more than characters in AD&D 2E or HERO or GURPS - less so even in many ways. I will say, I definitely saw the rise of the "OC"-style character in WoD games towards the end the '90s (especially online), where a certain proportion of players could be guaranteed to have remarkably wish-fulfil-y characters who didn't really jive with the setting and often didn't really match the rules, being more heavily inspired by non-human characters in anime and videogames.</p><p></p><p>The first time I remember "superheroes with fangs" becoming a huge point of discussion rather than something casually (and not always pejoratively) referred to was when Vampire Revised came out in 1998, and the designers commented that was intentionally meant to stop "superheroes with fangs"-type play (along with a couple of other disfavoured styles - including, seemingly, the Anne Rice-esque style envisioned by Mark Rein*Hagen and his collaborators with Vampire 1E) in favour of basically just "body horror and intrigue", as if that was some kind of social ill to be addressed. Then they of course undercut that by releasing a number of sourcebooks (particularly Combat) which made little sense outside of that context!</p><p></p><p>I ask this mostly so I can feel like I've got a firmer grip on what you would see as NeoTrad in order to answer the question. Because as obvious as it seems to you, this aspect seems to me to broaden things out considerably re: what is "NeoTrad" - like if that's NeoTrad, an awful lot of things are. But I suspect that I'm missing something!</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ruin Explorer, post: 9312937, member: 18"] Interesting point re: "superheroes with fangs", because I don't think there's anything inherent about that which would suggest [I]to me[/I] a dilution of DM authority, more player input, nor necessarily OC culture nor realizing player aspirations particularly. What is it you feel about that playstyle that makes it NeoTrad? I'm especially interested because this playstyle has existed for as long as Vampire has existed (arguably longer but some of the earlier supernatural being in a modern setting games were more intentionally superheroic). My brother and I first ran Vampire in like, 1992 or so, and immediately engaged with it in a way that was more "superheroes with fangs" than anything else (I suspect our ages - 12 and 14 - factored in, but I don't think that was uncommon). For me, "superheroes with fangs" is a subversion of what the [I]designers[/I] allegedly wanted from the game (albeit, often so extremely workable within the rules and even apparent intention, though, that it's hard to argue it was [I]entirely[/I] unintended - plus I'm not sure the difference between Lestat and Magneto or Louis and, say, '80s/'90s takes on Angel is necessarily as huge as some people might imagine). Certainly playing in games like that at the time, we didn't see the Storyteller's role as diminished in any way, nor our characters as "OCs" or wish-fulfilment any more than characters in AD&D 2E or HERO or GURPS - less so even in many ways. I will say, I definitely saw the rise of the "OC"-style character in WoD games towards the end the '90s (especially online), where a certain proportion of players could be guaranteed to have remarkably wish-fulfil-y characters who didn't really jive with the setting and often didn't really match the rules, being more heavily inspired by non-human characters in anime and videogames. The first time I remember "superheroes with fangs" becoming a huge point of discussion rather than something casually (and not always pejoratively) referred to was when Vampire Revised came out in 1998, and the designers commented that was intentionally meant to stop "superheroes with fangs"-type play (along with a couple of other disfavoured styles - including, seemingly, the Anne Rice-esque style envisioned by Mark Rein*Hagen and his collaborators with Vampire 1E) in favour of basically just "body horror and intrigue", as if that was some kind of social ill to be addressed. Then they of course undercut that by releasing a number of sourcebooks (particularly Combat) which made little sense outside of that context! I ask this mostly so I can feel like I've got a firmer grip on what you would see as NeoTrad in order to answer the question. Because as obvious as it seems to you, this aspect seems to me to broaden things out considerably re: what is "NeoTrad" - like if that's NeoTrad, an awful lot of things are. But I suspect that I'm missing something! [/QUOTE]
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