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What Games do you think are Neotrad?
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 9316754" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>This is a weird thing to say, because Ron Edwards has <a href="http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/15/" target="_blank">an incredibly insightful essay</a> on simulationist play - it did more to help me GM Rolemaster, for instance, than anything ever published by Iron Crown Enterprises.</p><p></p><p>But in terms of creative agenda, I suspect that you are what Edwards would characterise as a gamist who favours a very high degree of exploration, and <a href="http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/21/" target="_blank">both "little red dials" set very low </a>- that is, very little competition between players and between PCs - with the focus, rather, on the party overcoming the challenges set up by the GM. So in fact gorice's view wouldn't exclude you anyway.</p><p></p><p>A lot of things, perhaps, but not everything. I'll admit that equipment lists in both systems are low-hanging fruit; but I think (as another example) there are even spell lists in RM - the Evil lists and the Alchemist lists, in particular - that are really there primarily to give a sort of "world building" foundation to other aspects of play, like the magic items and the adversaries that PCs meet. High level spells in AD&D, like Cacodemon and Trap the Soul, are similar in this respect.</p><p></p><p>I agree that the neotrad category is about inflections or techniques. I've been following the blog post in identifying them; I think they operate primarily on high concept simulationism as the agenda (in the Forge sense of "agenda"), or on a very high exploration, low competition gamism.</p><p></p><p>As to the issue of whether or not simulationism exists as an agenda in itself, I tend to equivocate a bit. I do find Edwards's analysis of it very powerful - as I said earlier in this post, it shed more light for me on my RM experience (many hundreds, probably thousands, of hours of GMing that system) than anything else I've read. But our RM play was also vanilla narrativist, if haltingly so at times in part because of the incredibly strong tug back to exploration that RM gives rise to.</p><p></p><p>So if simulationism is an inflection/mode rather than an agenda, it is such a strong inflection that it threatens to swallow up the agenda altogether, if not kept under control (say, in the ways that Burning Wheel does).</p><p></p><p>Well "storygame" I personally don't find useful at all, any more than "narrative" (cf "narrativist). "Neotrad" has been useful, for me, in understanding a movement in approaches to RPGing that I'm not myself part of, but can observe - [USER=16586]@Campbell[/USER] has led my thinking in this respect.</p><p></p><p>As for "critic" vs "influence", I'm sure there are others out there but the the serious "critics" of RPGs and RPGing that I think of are Baker, Boss (though I know her mostly mediated via Baker), Edwards and Laws. Maybe Hite, for horror? And perhaps Crane? And I guess Kubasik because of his Interactive Tookit.</p><p></p><p>Any list is bound to be controversial, and my list probably just shows my age and inclinations.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 9316754, member: 42582"] This is a weird thing to say, because Ron Edwards has [url=http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/15/]an incredibly insightful essay[/url] on simulationist play - it did more to help me GM Rolemaster, for instance, than anything ever published by Iron Crown Enterprises. But in terms of creative agenda, I suspect that you are what Edwards would characterise as a gamist who favours a very high degree of exploration, and [url=http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/21/]both "little red dials" set very low [/url]- that is, very little competition between players and between PCs - with the focus, rather, on the party overcoming the challenges set up by the GM. So in fact gorice's view wouldn't exclude you anyway. A lot of things, perhaps, but not everything. I'll admit that equipment lists in both systems are low-hanging fruit; but I think (as another example) there are even spell lists in RM - the Evil lists and the Alchemist lists, in particular - that are really there primarily to give a sort of "world building" foundation to other aspects of play, like the magic items and the adversaries that PCs meet. High level spells in AD&D, like Cacodemon and Trap the Soul, are similar in this respect. I agree that the neotrad category is about inflections or techniques. I've been following the blog post in identifying them; I think they operate primarily on high concept simulationism as the agenda (in the Forge sense of "agenda"), or on a very high exploration, low competition gamism. As to the issue of whether or not simulationism exists as an agenda in itself, I tend to equivocate a bit. I do find Edwards's analysis of it very powerful - as I said earlier in this post, it shed more light for me on my RM experience (many hundreds, probably thousands, of hours of GMing that system) than anything else I've read. But our RM play was also vanilla narrativist, if haltingly so at times in part because of the incredibly strong tug back to exploration that RM gives rise to. So if simulationism is an inflection/mode rather than an agenda, it is such a strong inflection that it threatens to swallow up the agenda altogether, if not kept under control (say, in the ways that Burning Wheel does). Well "storygame" I personally don't find useful at all, any more than "narrative" (cf "narrativist). "Neotrad" has been useful, for me, in understanding a movement in approaches to RPGing that I'm not myself part of, but can observe - [USER=16586]@Campbell[/USER] has led my thinking in this respect. As for "critic" vs "influence", I'm sure there are others out there but the the serious "critics" of RPGs and RPGing that I think of are Baker, Boss (though I know her mostly mediated via Baker), Edwards and Laws. Maybe Hite, for horror? And perhaps Crane? And I guess Kubasik because of his Interactive Tookit. Any list is bound to be controversial, and my list probably just shows my age and inclinations. [/QUOTE]
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