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<blockquote data-quote="Lanefan" data-source="post: 7732515" data-attributes="member: 29398"><p>Good reason to play a more variable and-or malleable setting than Dark Sun, eh. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>I'm really surprised it hasn't been mapped by the players, and - given its obvious importance - somewhat disappointed it hasn't been mapped out by you at some point. Where, for example, are the stairs connecting the floors?</p><p></p><p>If all they're doing is trying to use the sewers to get from point A to point B and you've already determined that there's a way through the sewers from point A to point B, then a check or two for their navigation might be all you really need...unless there's other dangers down there in known locations, in which case you not only need a complete map but instead of relying on a simple navigation check you need the PCs to tell you which way they're going (left, right, straight, etc.) at each intersection they come to. And if the PCs don't make a map or make marks on the walls they risk getting lost should they be forced to turn around and try to go back the way they came.</p><p></p><p>Of course not; but if they're arriving there to explore the place, clear the monsters out, and take their stuff a map becomes extremely useful.</p><p></p><p>So you don't play out in detail the exploration part between the outdoors and the reliquary?</p><p></p><p>Also, don't get me started on 4e encounter maps - IME (and despite not playing 4e I've run about 6 4e adventures, converted) they almost always show far more than the PCs can actually see or know about and thus end up giving the players knowledge they flat-out shouldn't have...because it's knowledge their characters don't have.</p><p></p><p>This kind of boggles my mind, in that how else do you know where - say, in the fighting they did with the giants - everyone is, and how far you need to move to get to the next foe? (I just can't do that sort of thing in TotM mode - I need the visual reference).</p><p></p><p>They made their way through some tunnels. OK., let's run with that.</p><p></p><p>Here's a hypothetical example of what I absolutely want to avoid as DM and cannot stand as a player. We're making our way through some twisty tunnels. The DM describes a series of turns (without referring to a map; she's making this up on the fly), and we as characters are using string and angle measurements to try and map this out as we know our goal lies to the north and we know we were going north when we came in. We're also using water to determine slope but haven't found any yet - it's all about level.</p><p></p><p>As we're playing this out in detail the DM obliges, and tells us the angles we measure of each turn and twist in great accuracy. What she doesn't realize (because she's making it up as she goes) is she's turning us left about twice as often as she's turning us right, until eventually our mapping shows we've looped back to where we've already been and have in theory met our own tunnel...only there was no intersection there when we went by that place the first time.</p><p></p><p>Doesn't matter what the RPG is "aimed at"...maps are important from both the DM side and the player side, and often do serve a useful purpose.</p><p></p><p>Next you'll tell me your crew don't track the treasure they find.</p><p></p><p>So if I'm reading this right, the whole Enlil stopover was something of a left turn. Fair enough.</p><p></p><p>But you know they're going to Olyx at some point, so seeing as you can anticipate this and prepare for it why not do so?</p><p></p><p>Yeah, I can see the headaches here with any space-based game where the PCs have the means to go where they like.</p><p></p><p>Some can. Hardby has obviously become a key location in that campaign - do you have it mapped out yet? I would, at least in a loose form; if only so I could be and remain consistent on what's where each time they visit the place, should such become necessary, and on what's in the town at all.</p><p></p><p>I know for my part if a party visits a town once and spends some time there they'll learn some things about the place - what temples it has, what guilds it has, some of the pubs - and if they go back there 6 real-time months (or 6 real-time years!) later I'll never remember what they found the first time. My in-game note-taking is usually almost non-existent - I can't write and talk at the same time - and so I have to either rely on something prepared ahead of time or on whatever notes I make after the fact. Either way, the second time they visit they're getting what's on my notes. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>A railroad if the DM forces it, an organic story if she doesn't.</p><p></p><p>If you know from prior play they're going to Enlil to bust up a smugglers' base then why not locate and populate and draw up the base ahead of time? Yes there's a small chance you won't need what you've prepped - maybe they don't get there for some reason, or they left-turn on you - but the odds are you'll be able to use it as you've anticipated their next move...largely because they've told you what's coming.</p><p></p><p>An acknowledged risk, yes.</p><p>A DM who knows her players well also probably has a pretty good idea of what sorts of stories will grab their attention and thus are likely to be followed up on. Failing that, in a game like yours where the players in effect tell you what stories they want to play out (e.g. the balrog-possessed brother) they're also in effect handing you a half-made storyboard. Between session 0 when they give you this stuff and session 1 when you drop the puck you could storyboard out some ideas about the balrog stuff and each other player's story, then do some figuring as to how these might somehow interweave.</p><p></p><p>True. Remind me never to try running a sandbox-style game in space. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>Where in my opinion both of those are things you as GM should already know, so you can be consistent in how you present the scenes. </p><p>Then they can work with the trade federation to break up smuggling rings...and eventually they're very likely to learn some things they probably don't want to know, namely that the trade federation is in fact in league with the smugglers and (quite possibly) the PCs have been used as pawns all along just to get rid of those smugglers who aren't pulling their weight. I love this sort of thing - plots within plots that, when revealed, force major decisions onto the PCs along with making them question their loyalties.</p><p></p><p>Can't happen without some hidden backstory.</p><p></p><p>Put another way, there should always be a reason to look beneath the surface.</p><p></p><p>Again I say your definition of railroading is far harsher than most - and probably far too harsh to be of any use here given the perjorativity of both the term and the way you use it.</p><p></p><p>If they've no idea or clear plan for what they're doing next, or have found themselves at a dead end due to lack of information, then they're running blind. For example, in the Enlil game noted above, what if they'd gone to Enlil and found nothing of interest or use; then gone on to Olyx, finished up there and got paid but again found nothing of interest or use. Now what will they do? They're at a dead end due to lack of info, so all they can really do of use is head out into space and hope something presents itself...which is where you as GM come in by having something "randomly" present itself.</p><p></p><p>Same thing can happen in a more traditional sandbox-style D&D game - the PCs simply run out of things to do. They've cleared out everything of note in or near the kingdom they're in, they're not interested in courtly intrigues, they don't fancy taking on the role of local petty-crime fighters and bar-brawl referees, and they can only spend so much time playing pranks on each other. Their only real in-character option is to head off to another kingdom and see what presents itself...unless the DM steps in with her engineer's hat on and steers them toward some adventuring.</p><p></p><p>Lan-"just like there's always a bigger fish, there's always a deeper plot"-efan</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Lanefan, post: 7732515, member: 29398"] Good reason to play a more variable and-or malleable setting than Dark Sun, eh. :) I'm really surprised it hasn't been mapped by the players, and - given its obvious importance - somewhat disappointed it hasn't been mapped out by you at some point. Where, for example, are the stairs connecting the floors? If all they're doing is trying to use the sewers to get from point A to point B and you've already determined that there's a way through the sewers from point A to point B, then a check or two for their navigation might be all you really need...unless there's other dangers down there in known locations, in which case you not only need a complete map but instead of relying on a simple navigation check you need the PCs to tell you which way they're going (left, right, straight, etc.) at each intersection they come to. And if the PCs don't make a map or make marks on the walls they risk getting lost should they be forced to turn around and try to go back the way they came. Of course not; but if they're arriving there to explore the place, clear the monsters out, and take their stuff a map becomes extremely useful. So you don't play out in detail the exploration part between the outdoors and the reliquary? Also, don't get me started on 4e encounter maps - IME (and despite not playing 4e I've run about 6 4e adventures, converted) they almost always show far more than the PCs can actually see or know about and thus end up giving the players knowledge they flat-out shouldn't have...because it's knowledge their characters don't have. This kind of boggles my mind, in that how else do you know where - say, in the fighting they did with the giants - everyone is, and how far you need to move to get to the next foe? (I just can't do that sort of thing in TotM mode - I need the visual reference). They made their way through some tunnels. OK., let's run with that. Here's a hypothetical example of what I absolutely want to avoid as DM and cannot stand as a player. We're making our way through some twisty tunnels. The DM describes a series of turns (without referring to a map; she's making this up on the fly), and we as characters are using string and angle measurements to try and map this out as we know our goal lies to the north and we know we were going north when we came in. We're also using water to determine slope but haven't found any yet - it's all about level. As we're playing this out in detail the DM obliges, and tells us the angles we measure of each turn and twist in great accuracy. What she doesn't realize (because she's making it up as she goes) is she's turning us left about twice as often as she's turning us right, until eventually our mapping shows we've looped back to where we've already been and have in theory met our own tunnel...only there was no intersection there when we went by that place the first time. Doesn't matter what the RPG is "aimed at"...maps are important from both the DM side and the player side, and often do serve a useful purpose. Next you'll tell me your crew don't track the treasure they find. So if I'm reading this right, the whole Enlil stopover was something of a left turn. Fair enough. But you know they're going to Olyx at some point, so seeing as you can anticipate this and prepare for it why not do so? Yeah, I can see the headaches here with any space-based game where the PCs have the means to go where they like. Some can. Hardby has obviously become a key location in that campaign - do you have it mapped out yet? I would, at least in a loose form; if only so I could be and remain consistent on what's where each time they visit the place, should such become necessary, and on what's in the town at all. I know for my part if a party visits a town once and spends some time there they'll learn some things about the place - what temples it has, what guilds it has, some of the pubs - and if they go back there 6 real-time months (or 6 real-time years!) later I'll never remember what they found the first time. My in-game note-taking is usually almost non-existent - I can't write and talk at the same time - and so I have to either rely on something prepared ahead of time or on whatever notes I make after the fact. Either way, the second time they visit they're getting what's on my notes. :) A railroad if the DM forces it, an organic story if she doesn't. If you know from prior play they're going to Enlil to bust up a smugglers' base then why not locate and populate and draw up the base ahead of time? Yes there's a small chance you won't need what you've prepped - maybe they don't get there for some reason, or they left-turn on you - but the odds are you'll be able to use it as you've anticipated their next move...largely because they've told you what's coming. An acknowledged risk, yes. A DM who knows her players well also probably has a pretty good idea of what sorts of stories will grab their attention and thus are likely to be followed up on. Failing that, in a game like yours where the players in effect tell you what stories they want to play out (e.g. the balrog-possessed brother) they're also in effect handing you a half-made storyboard. Between session 0 when they give you this stuff and session 1 when you drop the puck you could storyboard out some ideas about the balrog stuff and each other player's story, then do some figuring as to how these might somehow interweave. True. Remind me never to try running a sandbox-style game in space. :) Where in my opinion both of those are things you as GM should already know, so you can be consistent in how you present the scenes. Then they can work with the trade federation to break up smuggling rings...and eventually they're very likely to learn some things they probably don't want to know, namely that the trade federation is in fact in league with the smugglers and (quite possibly) the PCs have been used as pawns all along just to get rid of those smugglers who aren't pulling their weight. I love this sort of thing - plots within plots that, when revealed, force major decisions onto the PCs along with making them question their loyalties. Can't happen without some hidden backstory. Put another way, there should always be a reason to look beneath the surface. Again I say your definition of railroading is far harsher than most - and probably far too harsh to be of any use here given the perjorativity of both the term and the way you use it. If they've no idea or clear plan for what they're doing next, or have found themselves at a dead end due to lack of information, then they're running blind. For example, in the Enlil game noted above, what if they'd gone to Enlil and found nothing of interest or use; then gone on to Olyx, finished up there and got paid but again found nothing of interest or use. Now what will they do? They're at a dead end due to lack of info, so all they can really do of use is head out into space and hope something presents itself...which is where you as GM come in by having something "randomly" present itself. Same thing can happen in a more traditional sandbox-style D&D game - the PCs simply run out of things to do. They've cleared out everything of note in or near the kingdom they're in, they're not interested in courtly intrigues, they don't fancy taking on the role of local petty-crime fighters and bar-brawl referees, and they can only spend so much time playing pranks on each other. Their only real in-character option is to head off to another kingdom and see what presents itself...unless the DM steps in with her engineer's hat on and steers them toward some adventuring. Lan-"just like there's always a bigger fish, there's always a deeper plot"-efan [/QUOTE]
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