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What is "grim and gritty" and "low magic" anyway?
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<blockquote data-quote="I'm A Banana" data-source="post: 1424006" data-attributes="member: 2067"><p>And I'd give you how they really are not all that abusive in the context of the game or the story. As an aside, claiming that I "haven't paid attention" or that you need to "instruct" me is pretty insulting. Just because I like more magic in my games than you does not mean I'm any 'worse' at this glorified game of make-believe than you.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Potayto, potahto, it's the same problem, just from the other side of the screen. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Heroic and achieving goals != crutch and cure all. I'm aruging that magic IS NOT a crutch and a cure all, and that you calling it such is just like people calling lm/gng games bags of unfun run by power-mad DM's.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>#1, the above is simply not true. The level and type of magic in D&D is NOT inconsistent with the bulk of heroic myth.</p><p>#2, not everyone wants to emulate or capture that experience. Some of us want to play a game.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>But that's the mistake, right there. In the campaigns I have run or been a part of, the vast majority have been default D&D, where your perception of magic as a cure all is just blatantly misguided. Magic is a tool; it's no more a cure-all than a sword, axe, or stick of dynamite. And just like those tools, they don't replace character's capabilities, but become extensions of the character's abilities. And thus, a character of wits, skills, and resourcefulness does not get the short shrift in the slightest, because that is as useful to a guy with a nuclear weapon as it is to a guy with a pointy stick as it is to a guy who can cast <em>commune</em> as it is to a guy who makes auguries with entrails as it is to someone who can <em>wish</em> the most powerful entitiy in the world simply out of existence. Characters of wits, skills, and resourcefulness all have a chance to shine, no matter what a spell can do, because magic has always had significant limitations. Even if you can scry-buff-teleport, that only lets you (maybe) beat up your enemies, it does not <u>solve the problem</u> any more than spying on them as a rogue and then stabbing them in their sleep does.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Why do I care about fiction or myth? Why does being present in some book suddenly make the game a deeper, better experience? Why is a literature-inspired setting better?</p><p></p><p>It's not. If you'd like to play a campaign that mirrors that, be my guest, but don't tell me that because I have a spell or three that I can't include situations of dramatic tension as found in those. I don't want to make-believe Lord of the Rings. I want to play a game. That game can have fear, the unknown, darkness, a deep history, character risk, permanent death, sacrifice, long journeys, and deep emotional investment in the characters just as well as Lord of the Rings. I can't use the specific situations, of course, but I *can* use other situations that have stirred the same emotions. So what if Arthur wasn't defined by Excalibur? I'm playing a game, not penning a national epic. And within that game, with all it's trappings on magic items, I can *still* make one sword thrown by a watery tart seem special and significant to the character. And who are you to tell me I can't?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The characters can shine even in a campaign with the role of magic UPplayed. Shining characters are not an exclusive of the lm/gng crowd.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Wouldn't a resourceful character in D&D make use of the tools available to them? Most notably things like spell combinations? Isn't the job of wit and creativity to overcome the threats such a being faces? If you have a problem with magic being the tools of that wit, that's remarkably different then there being a problem with the magic to begin with. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It's also not the only way, nor even potentially the best way.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That doesn't mean that a normal or high magic game doesn't have this element, though. It doesn't mean that low magic games are any better at acheiving that effect than high magic. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I've made players *weep* with emotion, using a VERY high magic world where they were regularly using effects like <em>Scry</em> to uncover the mysteries, regularly using <em>teleport</em> to go across the world, and regularly using save-or-die effects to dispatch the bad guys. The magic level has ZERO effect on how dramatic or emotional the game is -- that power lays exclusively with the DM and the players. Either that, or I am unknowingly a very exceptional DM. I tend to think the former, myself.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>There's no reason high magic has to disregard the accomplishment in a morally gray or gritty situation, or has to have only good conseqeunces.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Whatever a DM does falls into the field of things that are "outside of the abilities of PC's." PC's only decide their own actions. Everything else is the DM's purview. I don't know how making sure enemies know how to use magic just as well as the PC's is any more "trumping" than making sure monsters present a reasonable challenge or the adventure caters to all the characters. The entire bloody night is entirely DM fiat....how is adversaries with spellcasting capability any different?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm not attacking lm/gng campaigns, so much. They're perfectly reasonable, and there is a market for them, and they have their place. I just don't think 'their place' is in telling normal DM's that their campaigns can't have grand emotional elements or the core ideas of plot and conflict simply because of a few spells. Which it really did seem like when things like</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>were typed. So really, I'm defending normal D&D, because lm/gng is different, but it's not any holistically better. It works for a different feel, but it's not a 'better' feel, and having normal magic does NOT yeild an easy solution to every problem, nor does it destroy the emotional investment in the game. It's the DM's that do that, not the level of magic. Normal or high magic doesn't have to be a simple game of killing things and taking their loot, any more than low magic has to be a game of killing all the impotent PC's.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="I'm A Banana, post: 1424006, member: 2067"] And I'd give you how they really are not all that abusive in the context of the game or the story. As an aside, claiming that I "haven't paid attention" or that you need to "instruct" me is pretty insulting. Just because I like more magic in my games than you does not mean I'm any 'worse' at this glorified game of make-believe than you. Potayto, potahto, it's the same problem, just from the other side of the screen. ;) Heroic and achieving goals != crutch and cure all. I'm aruging that magic IS NOT a crutch and a cure all, and that you calling it such is just like people calling lm/gng games bags of unfun run by power-mad DM's. #1, the above is simply not true. The level and type of magic in D&D is NOT inconsistent with the bulk of heroic myth. #2, not everyone wants to emulate or capture that experience. Some of us want to play a game. But that's the mistake, right there. In the campaigns I have run or been a part of, the vast majority have been default D&D, where your perception of magic as a cure all is just blatantly misguided. Magic is a tool; it's no more a cure-all than a sword, axe, or stick of dynamite. And just like those tools, they don't replace character's capabilities, but become extensions of the character's abilities. And thus, a character of wits, skills, and resourcefulness does not get the short shrift in the slightest, because that is as useful to a guy with a nuclear weapon as it is to a guy with a pointy stick as it is to a guy who can cast [I]commune[/I] as it is to a guy who makes auguries with entrails as it is to someone who can [I]wish[/I] the most powerful entitiy in the world simply out of existence. Characters of wits, skills, and resourcefulness all have a chance to shine, no matter what a spell can do, because magic has always had significant limitations. Even if you can scry-buff-teleport, that only lets you (maybe) beat up your enemies, it does not [u]solve the problem[/u] any more than spying on them as a rogue and then stabbing them in their sleep does. Why do I care about fiction or myth? Why does being present in some book suddenly make the game a deeper, better experience? Why is a literature-inspired setting better? It's not. If you'd like to play a campaign that mirrors that, be my guest, but don't tell me that because I have a spell or three that I can't include situations of dramatic tension as found in those. I don't want to make-believe Lord of the Rings. I want to play a game. That game can have fear, the unknown, darkness, a deep history, character risk, permanent death, sacrifice, long journeys, and deep emotional investment in the characters just as well as Lord of the Rings. I can't use the specific situations, of course, but I *can* use other situations that have stirred the same emotions. So what if Arthur wasn't defined by Excalibur? I'm playing a game, not penning a national epic. And within that game, with all it's trappings on magic items, I can *still* make one sword thrown by a watery tart seem special and significant to the character. And who are you to tell me I can't? The characters can shine even in a campaign with the role of magic UPplayed. Shining characters are not an exclusive of the lm/gng crowd. Wouldn't a resourceful character in D&D make use of the tools available to them? Most notably things like spell combinations? Isn't the job of wit and creativity to overcome the threats such a being faces? If you have a problem with magic being the tools of that wit, that's remarkably different then there being a problem with the magic to begin with. It's also not the only way, nor even potentially the best way. That doesn't mean that a normal or high magic game doesn't have this element, though. It doesn't mean that low magic games are any better at acheiving that effect than high magic. I've made players *weep* with emotion, using a VERY high magic world where they were regularly using effects like [I]Scry[/I] to uncover the mysteries, regularly using [I]teleport[/I] to go across the world, and regularly using save-or-die effects to dispatch the bad guys. The magic level has ZERO effect on how dramatic or emotional the game is -- that power lays exclusively with the DM and the players. Either that, or I am unknowingly a very exceptional DM. I tend to think the former, myself. There's no reason high magic has to disregard the accomplishment in a morally gray or gritty situation, or has to have only good conseqeunces. Whatever a DM does falls into the field of things that are "outside of the abilities of PC's." PC's only decide their own actions. Everything else is the DM's purview. I don't know how making sure enemies know how to use magic just as well as the PC's is any more "trumping" than making sure monsters present a reasonable challenge or the adventure caters to all the characters. The entire bloody night is entirely DM fiat....how is adversaries with spellcasting capability any different? I'm not attacking lm/gng campaigns, so much. They're perfectly reasonable, and there is a market for them, and they have their place. I just don't think 'their place' is in telling normal DM's that their campaigns can't have grand emotional elements or the core ideas of plot and conflict simply because of a few spells. Which it really did seem like when things like were typed. So really, I'm defending normal D&D, because lm/gng is different, but it's not any holistically better. It works for a different feel, but it's not a 'better' feel, and having normal magic does NOT yeild an easy solution to every problem, nor does it destroy the emotional investment in the game. It's the DM's that do that, not the level of magic. Normal or high magic doesn't have to be a simple game of killing things and taking their loot, any more than low magic has to be a game of killing all the impotent PC's. [/QUOTE]
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