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What is "grim and gritty" and "low magic" anyway?
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<blockquote data-quote="WizarDru" data-source="post: 1424762" data-attributes="member: 151"><p>The further the discussion goes, the more I see hong's point.</p><p> </p><p>Even without magic items, in a totally non-magic setting, D&D won't create the 'grim-and-gritty' setting that I think some folks envision for it. A 20th level fighter or barbarian is still a thing of terror, magic weapons or no.</p><p> </p><p>A human fighter has something on the odds of 13 feats, four attacks at the maximum BAB for PCs in the game, one excellent save (and in a low magic world, the most important of the three) and the ability to use virtually any weapon or armor he can lay his hands upon (though it may bost him a feat to do so). A rogue is equally puissant in such sitautions. An appropriately tricked out archer can drop whole armies, if he has the breathing room. </p><p> </p><p>Does that accurately reflect fiction or myth? I'm not sure that it does. I'm not saying there's a problem with either approach, but it seems to me that a lm/gng game would need to do far more than just remove magic from the equation. The very nature of the game would preclude it.</p><p> </p><p>Myths and stories don't need to concern themselves with the trifles of what makes a good game, which like the 'what makes a good book doesn't necesarrily make a good movie' argument may be beyond the scope of this discussion, I think. The point merely is that Beowulf had only a couple of monsters in his world to battle, not dozens of thriving monster ecologies existing parallel to each other. </p><p> </p><p>I both agree and disagree with some of the things Wulf has said, for example. Having run "Lich Queen's Beloved", where the PCs go to the Astral and take the smack to the Lich Queen of the Githyanki herself, I can say that Wulf is right in that the PCs dropped 250 Githyanki warriors in a matter of rounds. Taking out the whole invasion force, if it bunched up for those area damage spells, wouldn't have been hard. They didn't after that encounter, of course, but the point still stands.</p><p> </p><p>However, I've also got a shadowdancer who rolled an 86 on a skill check, and an elven archer who can routinely his the mid-50s on her spot checks. The wizard isn't the one deactivating that Sphere of Annihilation trap. Could he? He could have almost certainly done so, if he could have discovered it. But seeing as he lacked the skill to detect the trap, it would have been lethal to him. Which is why they sent the rogue on ahead to find and deal with the problem. The wizard <em>can</em> trump many abilities, if he's prepared for the situations...but the wizard and the other players often don't get to choose their own battlefields, or the time of the battle. I routinely hear "what do you mean, we're out of teleports?" or "I didn't prepare that today. I can do it tomorrow..." just as often at 23rd level as we did at 3rd. In all three of the last three sessions, in fact.</p><p> </p><p>And there are plenty of things that even 23rd level characters can't do in 6 spells. Convince a rogue group of Celestials to change their minds about leaving the host and becoming guardians of the Prime, for example, or forcing a deity to involve himself directly in a inter-planar war, for another.</p><p> </p><p>Ultimately, I see both styles as having appeal. Sometimes I want to be in Lankhmar, other times I want to be in Dragaera. Both are fun.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="WizarDru, post: 1424762, member: 151"] The further the discussion goes, the more I see hong's point. Even without magic items, in a totally non-magic setting, D&D won't create the 'grim-and-gritty' setting that I think some folks envision for it. A 20th level fighter or barbarian is still a thing of terror, magic weapons or no. A human fighter has something on the odds of 13 feats, four attacks at the maximum BAB for PCs in the game, one excellent save (and in a low magic world, the most important of the three) and the ability to use virtually any weapon or armor he can lay his hands upon (though it may bost him a feat to do so). A rogue is equally puissant in such sitautions. An appropriately tricked out archer can drop whole armies, if he has the breathing room. Does that accurately reflect fiction or myth? I'm not sure that it does. I'm not saying there's a problem with either approach, but it seems to me that a lm/gng game would need to do far more than just remove magic from the equation. The very nature of the game would preclude it. Myths and stories don't need to concern themselves with the trifles of what makes a good game, which like the 'what makes a good book doesn't necesarrily make a good movie' argument may be beyond the scope of this discussion, I think. The point merely is that Beowulf had only a couple of monsters in his world to battle, not dozens of thriving monster ecologies existing parallel to each other. I both agree and disagree with some of the things Wulf has said, for example. Having run "Lich Queen's Beloved", where the PCs go to the Astral and take the smack to the Lich Queen of the Githyanki herself, I can say that Wulf is right in that the PCs dropped 250 Githyanki warriors in a matter of rounds. Taking out the whole invasion force, if it bunched up for those area damage spells, wouldn't have been hard. They didn't after that encounter, of course, but the point still stands. However, I've also got a shadowdancer who rolled an 86 on a skill check, and an elven archer who can routinely his the mid-50s on her spot checks. The wizard isn't the one deactivating that Sphere of Annihilation trap. Could he? He could have almost certainly done so, if he could have discovered it. But seeing as he lacked the skill to detect the trap, it would have been lethal to him. Which is why they sent the rogue on ahead to find and deal with the problem. The wizard [i]can[/i] trump many abilities, if he's prepared for the situations...but the wizard and the other players often don't get to choose their own battlefields, or the time of the battle. I routinely hear "what do you mean, we're out of teleports?" or "I didn't prepare that today. I can do it tomorrow..." just as often at 23rd level as we did at 3rd. In all three of the last three sessions, in fact. And there are plenty of things that even 23rd level characters can't do in 6 spells. Convince a rogue group of Celestials to change their minds about leaving the host and becoming guardians of the Prime, for example, or forcing a deity to involve himself directly in a inter-planar war, for another. Ultimately, I see both styles as having appeal. Sometimes I want to be in Lankhmar, other times I want to be in Dragaera. Both are fun. [/QUOTE]
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