Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
Meta - Forums About Forums
Archive-threads
What is "grim and gritty" and "low magic" anyway?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="I'm A Banana" data-source="post: 1428390" data-attributes="member: 2067"><p>Y'know, since tauton did a better job than I did ( <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" /> ), I'm starting to think that for a 'mythic feel' nerfing and railroading are par for the course....I can't think of any significant literature or myth with the same amount of random chance, luck, and ingenuity possessed by one party of PC's. You put four players playing halflings in the position of Frodo & Co., with the same magic, same limits, same design, you don't get "Lord of the Rings" out the other end, you get people griping about uber-NPC's, and railroading ("I give the ring to Merry." "NO, YOU CAN'T DO THAT! YOU'RE THE ONLY ONE PURE ENOUGH!" "I don't care, this isn't fun anymore." "ARGGH, MY CONTINUITY!!!!!").</p><p></p><p>But then, being able to mimic plots I'm not sure is ever anyone's goal with D&D.....it seems that people want to more 'capture the feel' than 'capture the plot.' And in that respect, I don't think high-level D&D is any worse at it than anything else....you can get a mythic feel in high-level D&D.....but perhaps what constitutes a "mythic feel" should be defined first?</p><p></p><p>You know, Wulf, you're right, I was railroading and using a certain amount of DM fiat to get them to go on my little quest (I could point out some specific problems in your counter, but meh, my argument has changed. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" />)....but then again, so did Homer....so did I really fail in mimicing the 'mythic feel'? Because from what I can tell, DM Fiat, railroading, uber-NPC's, etc. are a big portion of feeling like a myth. Odysseus can't use his sailing skills to get home fast because the Gods/DM says so. Achilles got hit in the heel because the Gods/DM says so. Hercales can succumb to the poison because the Gods/DM set the DC at an impossible DC, ditto with Gandalf not being able to use the Ring. It seems that the basic answer is that no, I can't precisely mimic the Oddyssey without restorting to the same measures that Homer did, just like I can't mimic Lord of the Rings without resorting to the same measures Tolkien did. Because what works in those books to get the heroes to do their quests would annoy the hell out of a human being who wants to do the same. If Odysseus wanted to planeshift-teleport home the most basic answer is that the gods would screw him over, because that's what happens in classical greek myth -- your most powerful weapons are useless in the face of Gods/DM Fiat.</p><p></p><p>That said, I can still do an arduous journey at 15th level. Check out the "How-To" thread, for that, but the gist of it is that the PC's find out that since there are Suitors in their homeland, and they outnumber the PC's, simply materializing at home will have their loved ones killed by the suitors, who aren't about to let the hero come back and claim what they already have dibs on. The Suitors, of course, aren't entirely slackers themselves, and though the family could be raised again (maybe....since they're NPC's, the DM can decide that they *like* hanging out in Paradise...), the simple disregard for their untimely deaths would probably be enough to put every Good-aligned church on the island out of wanting to do it (and the evil-aligned churches would probably be more trouble than they're worth). Thus, the best approach is to try and sneak in....underneath the enemy's constant survielance of the homeland. A disguise is pretty iffy, since the enemies also have access to powerful magic to dispel such a thing (true seeing and the like). Each PC has a connection outside their house (their own personal Telemachus) that a secluded nation has hidden away, with a powerful artefact of disguise and obscurement. The adventure then is going from place to place to follow threads of this hidden nation, to find the people who can help them sneak in, so that they can ensure the safety of their family and friends before routing the wicked. This isn't DM fiat, this is simply tactics...soon after the PC's were preoccupied, the suitors moved in to lay claims to the land, and they have the threat and ability to kill the PC's family, whom they might not get back (and definately wouldn't get back easily) if they took the most expedient means. This is the goal of the bad guys, since they want to keep what they got, and it's a bit shaky right now (there's a brat running around, and the wife still hasn't married any of them), so they're worried about each other, and about other powerful forces, and the PC's (Divination says they're still alive!, but the family of the PC's of course doesn't get this news...unless by secret means....). The PC's then have to find a way in that doesn't immediately alert anyone to the trouble, or else their family dies (and there's never a garuntee that an NPC will come back, or like them very much when they do). The steps can be the steps above.</p><p></p><p>Suffice it to say for now that no one can mimic literature or myth at any level with D&D because it requires such obnoxious DM turns as to render it not entertaining for the majority of those playing. But that doesn't mean that the challenges and problems presented in myth and literature cannot still exist in high-level D&D. There's a thread right now that's concentrating on that very thing.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="I'm A Banana, post: 1428390, member: 2067"] Y'know, since tauton did a better job than I did ( :p ), I'm starting to think that for a 'mythic feel' nerfing and railroading are par for the course....I can't think of any significant literature or myth with the same amount of random chance, luck, and ingenuity possessed by one party of PC's. You put four players playing halflings in the position of Frodo & Co., with the same magic, same limits, same design, you don't get "Lord of the Rings" out the other end, you get people griping about uber-NPC's, and railroading ("I give the ring to Merry." "NO, YOU CAN'T DO THAT! YOU'RE THE ONLY ONE PURE ENOUGH!" "I don't care, this isn't fun anymore." "ARGGH, MY CONTINUITY!!!!!"). But then, being able to mimic plots I'm not sure is ever anyone's goal with D&D.....it seems that people want to more 'capture the feel' than 'capture the plot.' And in that respect, I don't think high-level D&D is any worse at it than anything else....you can get a mythic feel in high-level D&D.....but perhaps what constitutes a "mythic feel" should be defined first? You know, Wulf, you're right, I was railroading and using a certain amount of DM fiat to get them to go on my little quest (I could point out some specific problems in your counter, but meh, my argument has changed. :))....but then again, so did Homer....so did I really fail in mimicing the 'mythic feel'? Because from what I can tell, DM Fiat, railroading, uber-NPC's, etc. are a big portion of feeling like a myth. Odysseus can't use his sailing skills to get home fast because the Gods/DM says so. Achilles got hit in the heel because the Gods/DM says so. Hercales can succumb to the poison because the Gods/DM set the DC at an impossible DC, ditto with Gandalf not being able to use the Ring. It seems that the basic answer is that no, I can't precisely mimic the Oddyssey without restorting to the same measures that Homer did, just like I can't mimic Lord of the Rings without resorting to the same measures Tolkien did. Because what works in those books to get the heroes to do their quests would annoy the hell out of a human being who wants to do the same. If Odysseus wanted to planeshift-teleport home the most basic answer is that the gods would screw him over, because that's what happens in classical greek myth -- your most powerful weapons are useless in the face of Gods/DM Fiat. That said, I can still do an arduous journey at 15th level. Check out the "How-To" thread, for that, but the gist of it is that the PC's find out that since there are Suitors in their homeland, and they outnumber the PC's, simply materializing at home will have their loved ones killed by the suitors, who aren't about to let the hero come back and claim what they already have dibs on. The Suitors, of course, aren't entirely slackers themselves, and though the family could be raised again (maybe....since they're NPC's, the DM can decide that they *like* hanging out in Paradise...), the simple disregard for their untimely deaths would probably be enough to put every Good-aligned church on the island out of wanting to do it (and the evil-aligned churches would probably be more trouble than they're worth). Thus, the best approach is to try and sneak in....underneath the enemy's constant survielance of the homeland. A disguise is pretty iffy, since the enemies also have access to powerful magic to dispel such a thing (true seeing and the like). Each PC has a connection outside their house (their own personal Telemachus) that a secluded nation has hidden away, with a powerful artefact of disguise and obscurement. The adventure then is going from place to place to follow threads of this hidden nation, to find the people who can help them sneak in, so that they can ensure the safety of their family and friends before routing the wicked. This isn't DM fiat, this is simply tactics...soon after the PC's were preoccupied, the suitors moved in to lay claims to the land, and they have the threat and ability to kill the PC's family, whom they might not get back (and definately wouldn't get back easily) if they took the most expedient means. This is the goal of the bad guys, since they want to keep what they got, and it's a bit shaky right now (there's a brat running around, and the wife still hasn't married any of them), so they're worried about each other, and about other powerful forces, and the PC's (Divination says they're still alive!, but the family of the PC's of course doesn't get this news...unless by secret means....). The PC's then have to find a way in that doesn't immediately alert anyone to the trouble, or else their family dies (and there's never a garuntee that an NPC will come back, or like them very much when they do). The steps can be the steps above. Suffice it to say for now that no one can mimic literature or myth at any level with D&D because it requires such obnoxious DM turns as to render it not entertaining for the majority of those playing. But that doesn't mean that the challenges and problems presented in myth and literature cannot still exist in high-level D&D. There's a thread right now that's concentrating on that very thing. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
Meta - Forums About Forums
Archive-threads
What is "grim and gritty" and "low magic" anyway?
Top