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What is the essence of 4E?
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<blockquote data-quote="Jester David" data-source="post: 7451854" data-attributes="member: 37579"><p>It's very much about memorizing rules. </p><p>Looking at Pathfinder 2 here, rather than keeping this about 4e (because discussing that in terms even remotely non-positive will automatically induce an edition war) </p><p></p><p></p><p>CLOAK OF ELVENKIND ITEM 10+</p><p>Illusion, Invested, Magical</p><p>Method of Use worn, cloak; Bulk L</p><p>Activation [[A]] Focus Activation, [[A]] Operate Activation</p><p></p><p>This cloak is deep green with a voluminous hood, and is embroidered with gold trim and symbols of significance to the elves. The cloak allows you to cast the ghost sound cantrip as an innate arcane spell. When you draw the hood up over your head (an Interact action), the cloak transforms to match the environment around you and muffles your sounds, giving you an item bonus to Stealth checks. If you activate the cloak, you pull the hood up and are affected by invisibility for 1 minute or until you pull the hood back down, whichever comes first.</p><p>Type standard; Level 10; Price 1,000 gp</p><p>The cloak grants a +3 bonus.</p><p>Type greater; Level 18; Price 24,000 gp</p><p>The cloak grants a +5 bonus, and invisibility is 4th level. If you're also wearing greater boots of elvenkind, the greater cloak of elvenkind allows you to Sneak in forest environments even when creatures are currently observing you.</p><p></p><p>Looking at it, the activation uses two keywords and a couple symbol, plus Bulk and the various tags (illusion, invested, magical). There's references to the "Interact" action in the text as well. There's a lot of stuff that is just gobbledygook to new players.</p><p>But my favourite bit is at the end where the cloak says it allows you to "Sneak in forest environments". It reads like a plain sentence but the capitalization denotes it's actually some special term. What does it mean? I'm uncertain. It's basically hidden rules.</p><p></p><p>Or another example, 13th Age. </p><p>I was working on making a 5e warlord type class for a while. And looked at the Commande for inspiration. And found its powers awkward to parse. </p><p>Buck Up!</p><p>Quick action Recharge 16+ after battle</p><p>Targets: You and 1d4 nearby allies</p><p>Effect: Each target gains temporary hit points equal to the average number of hit points it gains when it heals using a recovery.</p><p>Champion Feat Add twice your Charisma modifier to the temporary hit points each target gains.</p><p>Epic Feat One of the targets can also heal using a recovery.</p><p></p><p>I can guess at some of the purposes but so much of how the power works or what it does is hidden in other rules. </p><p>That's a barrier to entry and requires system mastery to know what powers do, let alone if they're good or bad. </p><p></p><p></p><p>You SAY you've done the math and then don't provide it… Proof doesn't work like that. </p><p></p><p>Do higher level monsters have a lower AC. Okay. Probably. That's going to happen. But the key phrase of my claim was that "the AC of enemies goes up at a matching rate". </p><p></p><p>Let's actually go to a book. I have the 2e Monstrous Manual handy on my PC so I'll use that. </p><p>(Man, I had forgotten how low monster hit points were in 2e. There's some high level critters here that might only have 40hp...)</p><p></p><p>For low level monsters Goblin is AC 6; kobold is AC 7; orc is AC 6; ogre is AC 5</p><p>The hill giant is AC 3. Stone is AC 0. Storm is AC -6. A pit fiend is -5 while the balor is -8. Will o'wisps are -8 for some reason. And the tarrasque is only -3.</p><p>But dragon is the big one, with it's AC having a base number that varies by it's age, from -6 for a hatchling to +8 for a great old wyrm. 11</p><p>So the difference between a kobold you fight at level 1 and the great wyrm red dragon you fight at level 20 is…. 17. </p><p>And that's the most extreme example I can find, with most high level dangerous foes typically only having an AC in the -5 range. If even that. </p><p> </p><p>The fighter's bonus to attack rolls from just THAC0 exceeds the increases to AC. Their accuracy increases. </p><p></p><p></p><p>Emphasis added. "It's not against the rules to…." </p><p>Yeah… no. That's a theoretical argument. We're not discussing hypotheticals or corner case situations where you throw a great wyrm blue dragon against a level 5 party. </p><p>In the overwhelming majority of cases, groups are going to regularly and continually encounter threats and challenges at their level. That's the assumption, and in that case the increased bonuses you have match the increasing DC. </p><p>That's how it works in 3e, 4e, Pathfinder, and very likely Pathfinder 2. Where you go from a +5 on a check and a DC 15 to a +25 on a check and a DC 35.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I think I'll continue to rely on: <a href="http://slyflourish.com/epic/" target="_blank">http://slyflourish.com/epic/</a></p><p></p><p></p><p>So do the encounter building rules in the DMG work?</p><p>Are five level 25 monsters an moderate challenge for five level 25 PCs? </p><p>Is Orcus in the Monster Manual a decent challenge?</p><p></p><p></p><p>Well, that answers my above questions, and you admit I was right. That the rules broke down. You could no longer uses the assumed challenges in the book or the rules for encounter building that came with the game.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Jester David, post: 7451854, member: 37579"] It's very much about memorizing rules. Looking at Pathfinder 2 here, rather than keeping this about 4e (because discussing that in terms even remotely non-positive will automatically induce an edition war) CLOAK OF ELVENKIND ITEM 10+ Illusion, Invested, Magical Method of Use worn, cloak; Bulk L Activation [[A]] Focus Activation, [[A]] Operate Activation This cloak is deep green with a voluminous hood, and is embroidered with gold trim and symbols of significance to the elves. The cloak allows you to cast the ghost sound cantrip as an innate arcane spell. When you draw the hood up over your head (an Interact action), the cloak transforms to match the environment around you and muffles your sounds, giving you an item bonus to Stealth checks. If you activate the cloak, you pull the hood up and are affected by invisibility for 1 minute or until you pull the hood back down, whichever comes first. Type standard; Level 10; Price 1,000 gp The cloak grants a +3 bonus. Type greater; Level 18; Price 24,000 gp The cloak grants a +5 bonus, and invisibility is 4th level. If you're also wearing greater boots of elvenkind, the greater cloak of elvenkind allows you to Sneak in forest environments even when creatures are currently observing you. Looking at it, the activation uses two keywords and a couple symbol, plus Bulk and the various tags (illusion, invested, magical). There's references to the "Interact" action in the text as well. There's a lot of stuff that is just gobbledygook to new players. But my favourite bit is at the end where the cloak says it allows you to "Sneak in forest environments". It reads like a plain sentence but the capitalization denotes it's actually some special term. What does it mean? I'm uncertain. It's basically hidden rules. Or another example, 13th Age. I was working on making a 5e warlord type class for a while. And looked at the Commande for inspiration. And found its powers awkward to parse. Buck Up! Quick action Recharge 16+ after battle Targets: You and 1d4 nearby allies Effect: Each target gains temporary hit points equal to the average number of hit points it gains when it heals using a recovery. Champion Feat Add twice your Charisma modifier to the temporary hit points each target gains. Epic Feat One of the targets can also heal using a recovery. I can guess at some of the purposes but so much of how the power works or what it does is hidden in other rules. That's a barrier to entry and requires system mastery to know what powers do, let alone if they're good or bad. You SAY you've done the math and then don't provide it… Proof doesn't work like that. Do higher level monsters have a lower AC. Okay. Probably. That's going to happen. But the key phrase of my claim was that "the AC of enemies goes up at a matching rate". Let's actually go to a book. I have the 2e Monstrous Manual handy on my PC so I'll use that. (Man, I had forgotten how low monster hit points were in 2e. There's some high level critters here that might only have 40hp...) For low level monsters Goblin is AC 6; kobold is AC 7; orc is AC 6; ogre is AC 5 The hill giant is AC 3. Stone is AC 0. Storm is AC -6. A pit fiend is -5 while the balor is -8. Will o'wisps are -8 for some reason. And the tarrasque is only -3. But dragon is the big one, with it's AC having a base number that varies by it's age, from -6 for a hatchling to +8 for a great old wyrm. 11 So the difference between a kobold you fight at level 1 and the great wyrm red dragon you fight at level 20 is…. 17. And that's the most extreme example I can find, with most high level dangerous foes typically only having an AC in the -5 range. If even that. The fighter's bonus to attack rolls from just THAC0 exceeds the increases to AC. Their accuracy increases. Emphasis added. "It's not against the rules to…." Yeah… no. That's a theoretical argument. We're not discussing hypotheticals or corner case situations where you throw a great wyrm blue dragon against a level 5 party. In the overwhelming majority of cases, groups are going to regularly and continually encounter threats and challenges at their level. That's the assumption, and in that case the increased bonuses you have match the increasing DC. That's how it works in 3e, 4e, Pathfinder, and very likely Pathfinder 2. Where you go from a +5 on a check and a DC 15 to a +25 on a check and a DC 35. I think I'll continue to rely on: [url]http://slyflourish.com/epic/[/url] So do the encounter building rules in the DMG work? Are five level 25 monsters an moderate challenge for five level 25 PCs? Is Orcus in the Monster Manual a decent challenge? Well, that answers my above questions, and you admit I was right. That the rules broke down. You could no longer uses the assumed challenges in the book or the rules for encounter building that came with the game. [/QUOTE]
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