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What is the essence of 4E?
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<blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 7453340" data-attributes="member: 16814"><p>I may fall into that category, but then I also fall into both of [MENTION=17607]Pauper[/MENTION]'s categories: I like the shakeup of TLJ, I think 4e solved 3e's problems, and I think 4e almost lost D&D's base by not respecting the traditionalists.</p><p></p><p>Firstly, I don't think your prostulation is well formed to show a disparity in thinking. Star Wars is a narrative, D&D is a game used to create narratives. The change in Star Wars TLJ was to juggle a few of the tropes while largely adhering to the SW genre. 4e radically changed the underlying assumptions of how the game works. I do not think these are comparable.</p><p></p><p>That said, the reason 4e had issues with market share wasn't because it was a based game; it wasn't. But it did radically alter the game assumptions to a hard scene framed narrative style with a hard tactical wargame alongside and <strong>failed to clearly make this case.</strong> Even in the later settlements (DMG2, etc) the shift wasn't clearly enunciated unless you were already assigned to it or had no previous experience worth D&D and so had no baseline assumptions. This made it very hard for the existing playerbase to adopt 4e. Paired with some poor choices in marketing that further alienated the existing base, 4e set itself up for limited success through poor communication.</p><p></p><p>I stuck with 4e through DMG2 and should slightly before essentials. In that time, I never saw (or understood) the course shift to narrative play you immediately did through your experience. This was even a time I was looking at BW, so it wasn't Lee I want open to the concept. It just never clicked with 4e for me until much later reading these kinds of threads. So, no, I disagree that the shift was as obvious as you say. It's obvious once you clear the hurdle (although I think 4e wasn't designed thrust way, it just worked out as such and then embraced it), sure, but it's not an obvious hurdle. Nor one most were even looking for to begin with.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ovinomancer, post: 7453340, member: 16814"] I may fall into that category, but then I also fall into both of [MENTION=17607]Pauper[/MENTION]'s categories: I like the shakeup of TLJ, I think 4e solved 3e's problems, and I think 4e almost lost D&D's base by not respecting the traditionalists. Firstly, I don't think your prostulation is well formed to show a disparity in thinking. Star Wars is a narrative, D&D is a game used to create narratives. The change in Star Wars TLJ was to juggle a few of the tropes while largely adhering to the SW genre. 4e radically changed the underlying assumptions of how the game works. I do not think these are comparable. That said, the reason 4e had issues with market share wasn't because it was a based game; it wasn't. But it did radically alter the game assumptions to a hard scene framed narrative style with a hard tactical wargame alongside and [b]failed to clearly make this case.[/b] Even in the later settlements (DMG2, etc) the shift wasn't clearly enunciated unless you were already assigned to it or had no previous experience worth D&D and so had no baseline assumptions. This made it very hard for the existing playerbase to adopt 4e. Paired with some poor choices in marketing that further alienated the existing base, 4e set itself up for limited success through poor communication. I stuck with 4e through DMG2 and should slightly before essentials. In that time, I never saw (or understood) the course shift to narrative play you immediately did through your experience. This was even a time I was looking at BW, so it wasn't Lee I want open to the concept. It just never clicked with 4e for me until much later reading these kinds of threads. So, no, I disagree that the shift was as obvious as you say. It's obvious once you clear the hurdle (although I think 4e wasn't designed thrust way, it just worked out as such and then embraced it), sure, but it's not an obvious hurdle. Nor one most were even looking for to begin with. [/QUOTE]
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