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What is the most powerful spell?
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<blockquote data-quote="Stalker0" data-source="post: 7245382" data-attributes="member: 5889"><p>I would argue VT is not noticeably better than flame blade. It deals the same damage, but also has a much smaller duration (1 minute vs 10 minutes). Flame Blade also provides a light effect (though I would agree that's not an amazing effect, but every little bit helps). Necrotic vs Fire is probably a wash at the lower levels, I would say at higher levels necrotic is less commonly resisted so that would give VT an edge.</p><p></p><p>Also if we think about who casts these spells. A druid casting flame blade can afford to stay in melee with its hp and AC. An EK casting VT...the level of the EK at that level is too high for VT to be worth it. For a wizard casting VT, the wizard is putting himself in a lot of risk and relying on very unreliable healing to save them.</p><p></p><p>I think my ranking would be Less Useful 2nd level Flame Blade vs Excellent 2nd level Vampiric touch.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I will agree with you to keep DBF as at 7th level spell, which sets up my case for Fire Storm to remain as a 7th level spell. FS does a little less damage but it has dramatically better area control of its effect. DBF also has the possibility of being turned against you. Further, in general cleric spells are expected to do less than Wizard spells in terms of raw damage. So I think both should remain at 7th level.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Ultimately, its the precision of teleport that gives it its power. You cannot discount the power of arriving precisely where you want to, when you want to. Plane Shift is beast don't give me wrong, but its precision is very much under DM fiat. The DM can let you go where you want, or put you off course by a good bit should they choose to. With teleport, if you have the means, you go exactly where you want. Now its true it sometimes takes a little setup, but 13th level characters are crafty...and unlikely a teleport circle it only takes a single object to effectively have a "teleport circle" at your precise destination. So I think teleport and plane shift should both by 7th. I do think Plane Shift should be ranked higher on the 7th level tier...it is in many cases a better spell...but not so much better that teleport is trumped. </p><p></p><p>That said, I agree with you making Word of Recall 5th. Its a weaker teleportation circle, but as clerics tend to have weaker teleport effects I think it fits well there.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>My only argument is that fly does carry risks and requires concentration. But I think your argument holds weight, and I will agree with it to leave it as is.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You convinced me here. The comparison to Major Image I think is a good one.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Clerics are not squishy by any stretch, and as the main class that can heal themselves they do in fact have the hit points to spare. The drawback is absolutely worth the sweet buff (+1 AC/+1 saves). And in a number of situations, taking pain away from the fighters in front will allow your entire party to take more pain. This also pairs well with the mass healing spells. Warding Bond is great! And yes my party uses it.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You make some good points, ingenuity should not be discounted. I didn't have a strong need to move this spell so I would leave it as is. Programmed Illusion only takes an action, so you can get a very complex illusion setup very quickly. Again, probably a spell that doesn't look that strong at first glance until an ingenious player uses it, then you'll think its the strongest spell ever! Probably worth leaving it alone for now.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Stalker0, post: 7245382, member: 5889"] I would argue VT is not noticeably better than flame blade. It deals the same damage, but also has a much smaller duration (1 minute vs 10 minutes). Flame Blade also provides a light effect (though I would agree that's not an amazing effect, but every little bit helps). Necrotic vs Fire is probably a wash at the lower levels, I would say at higher levels necrotic is less commonly resisted so that would give VT an edge. Also if we think about who casts these spells. A druid casting flame blade can afford to stay in melee with its hp and AC. An EK casting VT...the level of the EK at that level is too high for VT to be worth it. For a wizard casting VT, the wizard is putting himself in a lot of risk and relying on very unreliable healing to save them. I think my ranking would be Less Useful 2nd level Flame Blade vs Excellent 2nd level Vampiric touch. I will agree with you to keep DBF as at 7th level spell, which sets up my case for Fire Storm to remain as a 7th level spell. FS does a little less damage but it has dramatically better area control of its effect. DBF also has the possibility of being turned against you. Further, in general cleric spells are expected to do less than Wizard spells in terms of raw damage. So I think both should remain at 7th level. Ultimately, its the precision of teleport that gives it its power. You cannot discount the power of arriving precisely where you want to, when you want to. Plane Shift is beast don't give me wrong, but its precision is very much under DM fiat. The DM can let you go where you want, or put you off course by a good bit should they choose to. With teleport, if you have the means, you go exactly where you want. Now its true it sometimes takes a little setup, but 13th level characters are crafty...and unlikely a teleport circle it only takes a single object to effectively have a "teleport circle" at your precise destination. So I think teleport and plane shift should both by 7th. I do think Plane Shift should be ranked higher on the 7th level tier...it is in many cases a better spell...but not so much better that teleport is trumped. That said, I agree with you making Word of Recall 5th. Its a weaker teleportation circle, but as clerics tend to have weaker teleport effects I think it fits well there. My only argument is that fly does carry risks and requires concentration. But I think your argument holds weight, and I will agree with it to leave it as is. You convinced me here. The comparison to Major Image I think is a good one. Clerics are not squishy by any stretch, and as the main class that can heal themselves they do in fact have the hit points to spare. The drawback is absolutely worth the sweet buff (+1 AC/+1 saves). And in a number of situations, taking pain away from the fighters in front will allow your entire party to take more pain. This also pairs well with the mass healing spells. Warding Bond is great! And yes my party uses it. You make some good points, ingenuity should not be discounted. I didn't have a strong need to move this spell so I would leave it as is. Programmed Illusion only takes an action, so you can get a very complex illusion setup very quickly. Again, probably a spell that doesn't look that strong at first glance until an ingenious player uses it, then you'll think its the strongest spell ever! Probably worth leaving it alone for now. [/QUOTE]
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