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What is the most powerful spell?
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<blockquote data-quote="Yaarel" data-source="post: 7246094" data-attributes="member: 58172"><p>Thanks for pointing that out. The data base is missing the paragraphs about interrogation (less important), and detecting unseen minds (important). I have corrected the entry now.</p><p></p><p>Ok. So, detecting unseen minds moves from Insight skill into telepathic ability. This factor seems notable.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>On the one hand, the interrogated target knows its mind is being probed, and will intentionally try to suppress surface thoughts about the hidden information. (It reminds of the scene from Village of the Damned, where the protagonist plants a bomb to kill telepathic children. The children probe his mind while he resists, and they dont penetrate to the truth until it is too late.) ‘Surface thoughts’ can be lies, attempts to use the Deception skill.</p><p></p><p>Meanwhile, the Insight skill can be used to discern specific details of information (at a higher DC). Just as in reallife ‘cold reading’, you run into someone who perhaps glances oddly at your money pouch, or oppositely, seems to avoid glancing at the direction of the pouch, or any other of a number of clues about intention that usually remain unconscious.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Since the poker player automatically knows the mind is being probed, the player will probably make a Deception check to bluff.</p><p></p><p>Meanwhile, Insight can be used to pierce a bluff, and possibly even to discern if the player has a good hand or bad.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Now, the detect unseen thinkers is a factor I havent taken into account yet, so let me think on that. But, it requires an action on each turn to scan this way, so it would rarely happen. One would have to already suspect an invisible creature is nearby to cast the spell for this purpose − in which case the action might have gone toward a better use.</p><p> So, this telepathic usage seems situational.</p><p></p><p> In any case, I am moving the Detect Thought to the ‘Perhaps Skill Check’ category. Even here, the ‘feeling that someone is looking at you’, might come under the Insight skill check.</p><p></p><p> Perhaps, skills can also be design space for certain extraordinary effects.</p><p></p><p>In any case, even there was an invisible creature within Close range, a normal Passive Perception DC would often detect it. And if suspected, an active Perception skill check could achieve a high d20 roll plus possible bonus and advantage from help to detect it.</p><p></p><p>Even corner cases of the Detect Thoughts spell seem within the realm of skills.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>[edit]</p><p></p><p>One might argue that in the case of ‘surface thoughts’, the caster is spending a spell slot, instead of rolling an Insight skill check. But 5e seems to frown on this approach. Compare the spell that unlocks a door (Knock) versus a Sleight of Hand skill check to do the same thing. 5e wants the skillster to be special, and for spells to be unable to replace the skillster. So the Knock spell comes with an inconvenient loud gong, to make sure that the skill is better than the spell.</p><p></p><p>The same should probably be true for social skills too. The skillster who invests in social skills should be special. A spell should be less good. Otherwise, spells would obsolete these skills.</p><p></p><p>So, in a case where a spell and one or more skills seem redundant, probably, the gaming design should privilege the skill and delete the spell.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Yaarel, post: 7246094, member: 58172"] Thanks for pointing that out. The data base is missing the paragraphs about interrogation (less important), and detecting unseen minds (important). I have corrected the entry now. Ok. So, detecting unseen minds moves from Insight skill into telepathic ability. This factor seems notable. On the one hand, the interrogated target knows its mind is being probed, and will intentionally try to suppress surface thoughts about the hidden information. (It reminds of the scene from Village of the Damned, where the protagonist plants a bomb to kill telepathic children. The children probe his mind while he resists, and they dont penetrate to the truth until it is too late.) ‘Surface thoughts’ can be lies, attempts to use the Deception skill. Meanwhile, the Insight skill can be used to discern specific details of information (at a higher DC). Just as in reallife ‘cold reading’, you run into someone who perhaps glances oddly at your money pouch, or oppositely, seems to avoid glancing at the direction of the pouch, or any other of a number of clues about intention that usually remain unconscious. Since the poker player automatically knows the mind is being probed, the player will probably make a Deception check to bluff. Meanwhile, Insight can be used to pierce a bluff, and possibly even to discern if the player has a good hand or bad. Now, the detect unseen thinkers is a factor I havent taken into account yet, so let me think on that. But, it requires an action on each turn to scan this way, so it would rarely happen. One would have to already suspect an invisible creature is nearby to cast the spell for this purpose − in which case the action might have gone toward a better use. So, this telepathic usage seems situational. In any case, I am moving the Detect Thought to the ‘Perhaps Skill Check’ category. Even here, the ‘feeling that someone is looking at you’, might come under the Insight skill check. Perhaps, skills can also be design space for certain extraordinary effects. In any case, even there was an invisible creature within Close range, a normal Passive Perception DC would often detect it. And if suspected, an active Perception skill check could achieve a high d20 roll plus possible bonus and advantage from help to detect it. Even corner cases of the Detect Thoughts spell seem within the realm of skills. [edit] One might argue that in the case of ‘surface thoughts’, the caster is spending a spell slot, instead of rolling an Insight skill check. But 5e seems to frown on this approach. Compare the spell that unlocks a door (Knock) versus a Sleight of Hand skill check to do the same thing. 5e wants the skillster to be special, and for spells to be unable to replace the skillster. So the Knock spell comes with an inconvenient loud gong, to make sure that the skill is better than the spell. The same should probably be true for social skills too. The skillster who invests in social skills should be special. A spell should be less good. Otherwise, spells would obsolete these skills. So, in a case where a spell and one or more skills seem redundant, probably, the gaming design should privilege the skill and delete the spell. [/QUOTE]
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