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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7345637" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>To me, this all speaks of very heavily GM-driven play.</p><p></p><p>The GM has established that there are foothills. The GM estabilshes the material for the challenges in said foothills. The GM estabilshes the personality of Bob the Guard, and determines what it is that Bob the Rogue's contacts have told him about Bob the Guard. The GM establishes where the map is, and the players have to work ther way through the GM's pre-established fiction until they make the right move to find the map.</p><p></p><p>As you are describing these things, I am not seeing a great deal of player agency over the shared fiction.</p><p></p><p>From the OP:</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"></p><p></p><p>Perhaps your game is something like that? So player agency is really in beating the maze/puzzle?</p><p></p><p>It' s not clear, though. Eg in classic D&D, the "time limit" comes from a known-to-the-players wandering monster mechanic, plus known-to-the-players rules about torches burning down, light spells running out, etc. So the "time limit" isn't anything like a story element - it's a parameter of the puzzle that has to be taken into account in arriving at a solution.</p><p></p><p>Here's another way a "time limit" can work: (i) there are 5 rooms; (ii) you can search 3 of them for the map; (iii) then you're done. That doesn't seem to allow much player agency - it's just a gamble. Suppose there is an extra rule: use your Passwall resource and you can search an extra room. (In the fiction, the spell creates a shortcut.) That's a very modest bit of agency, but not as much as in classic D&D.</p><p></p><p>It's not clear to me what you haVE in mind when you talk about a time limit. Likewise with the guards, which perhaps are like wandering monsters but perhaps not.</p><p></p><p></p><p>As far as Jabal is concerned, a long way upthread I already distinguished between two different Circles declarations:</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">* Jabal is a leader of my cabal. I reach out to him.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">* As we travel, I look for signs of any members of my knightly order.</p><p></p><p>The first involves establishing a new element of the fiction; the second does not. Establsihing a new element of the fiction is not a canonical element of a Circles check.</p><p></p><p>And I do not define player agency as "the ability to introduce new fiction through action declaration". I have repeatedly talked about "player agency over the content of the shared fiction", and have pointed to multiple ways that can be exercised. Action declaration is one. Providing material for GM narration of framing and consequences is another.</p><p></p><p>The exanmples you gave, that I quoted above, illustrate this. How does the GM decide what challenges will be found in the foothils? Who decided that foothilss would figure in the game at all? Why has the GM framed a scene with Bob the Guard, and established that Bob the Guard can't be bribed? Who made acquisition of the map a goal of play?</p><p></p><p>At least as you describe these things, I get an impression that you regard all this as very GM-driven. Here's a furtehr cause of that impression:</p><p></p><p>In the "standard narrativistic model", the source and content of the framing is hugely important. The players build characters; those characters have dramatic needs; the GM's job is to frame those characters into situations that will speak to those dramatic needs and provoke choices, which lead to consequences, which feed into further framing, and so on until the game is done.</p><p></p><p>This is an important mode of player agency in respect of the content of the shared fiction, which has nothing to do with action declaration.</p><p></p><p>Are you envisaging the players framing their own situations? That really does sound like "collaborative storytelling".</p><p></p><p>But in any event I simply can't agree. A player who signals "I want to play a game in which my PC tries to free his brother from possession by a balrog, starting with the attempt to find items that will help that task" is not having his/her agency negated by the GM saying "OK, you're in a market, and a peddler is offering to sell you an angel feather." That player's agency is being affirmed!</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7345637, member: 42582"] To me, this all speaks of very heavily GM-driven play. The GM has established that there are foothills. The GM estabilshes the material for the challenges in said foothills. The GM estabilshes the personality of Bob the Guard, and determines what it is that Bob the Rogue's contacts have told him about Bob the Guard. The GM establishes where the map is, and the players have to work ther way through the GM's pre-established fiction until they make the right move to find the map. As you are describing these things, I am not seeing a great deal of player agency over the shared fiction. From the OP: [indent][/indent] Perhaps your game is something like that? So player agency is really in beating the maze/puzzle? It' s not clear, though. Eg in classic D&D, the "time limit" comes from a known-to-the-players wandering monster mechanic, plus known-to-the-players rules about torches burning down, light spells running out, etc. So the "time limit" isn't anything like a story element - it's a parameter of the puzzle that has to be taken into account in arriving at a solution. Here's another way a "time limit" can work: (i) there are 5 rooms; (ii) you can search 3 of them for the map; (iii) then you're done. That doesn't seem to allow much player agency - it's just a gamble. Suppose there is an extra rule: use your Passwall resource and you can search an extra room. (In the fiction, the spell creates a shortcut.) That's a very modest bit of agency, but not as much as in classic D&D. It's not clear to me what you haVE in mind when you talk about a time limit. Likewise with the guards, which perhaps are like wandering monsters but perhaps not. As far as Jabal is concerned, a long way upthread I already distinguished between two different Circles declarations: [indent]* Jabal is a leader of my cabal. I reach out to him. * As we travel, I look for signs of any members of my knightly order.[/indent] The first involves establishing a new element of the fiction; the second does not. Establsihing a new element of the fiction is not a canonical element of a Circles check. And I do not define player agency as "the ability to introduce new fiction through action declaration". I have repeatedly talked about "player agency over the content of the shared fiction", and have pointed to multiple ways that can be exercised. Action declaration is one. Providing material for GM narration of framing and consequences is another. The exanmples you gave, that I quoted above, illustrate this. How does the GM decide what challenges will be found in the foothils? Who decided that foothilss would figure in the game at all? Why has the GM framed a scene with Bob the Guard, and established that Bob the Guard can't be bribed? Who made acquisition of the map a goal of play? At least as you describe these things, I get an impression that you regard all this as very GM-driven. Here's a furtehr cause of that impression: In the "standard narrativistic model", the source and content of the framing is hugely important. The players build characters; those characters have dramatic needs; the GM's job is to frame those characters into situations that will speak to those dramatic needs and provoke choices, which lead to consequences, which feed into further framing, and so on until the game is done. This is an important mode of player agency in respect of the content of the shared fiction, which has nothing to do with action declaration. Are you envisaging the players framing their own situations? That really does sound like "collaborative storytelling". But in any event I simply can't agree. A player who signals "I want to play a game in which my PC tries to free his brother from possession by a balrog, starting with the attempt to find items that will help that task" is not having his/her agency negated by the GM saying "OK, you're in a market, and a peddler is offering to sell you an angel feather." That player's agency is being affirmed! [/QUOTE]
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