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What makes an TTRPG a "Narrative Game" (Daggerheart Discussion)
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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 9317241" data-attributes="member: 82106"><p>Not in my experience. Lets take an example: The classic 5e module Lost Mine of Phandelver. There are a number of locations in this module, but they are all pre-authored and each one offers a limited set of outcomes. While you can visit some of them out of order, or even skip certain ones, the overall plot arc is entirely 'canned'. The PCs will go to several locations, fight things/negotiate/investigate - which it is being determined by the location, not the PCs generally speaking. Eventually they will end up at the mine, where they will fight certain opponents, again maybe varying the order or avoiding some of them. There's only very shallow protagonism here, and no Story Now character to the thing at all. What happens in most RPGs is not what I would call Narrativist play, in which the players, through the orientation of their PCs to the central premise, define what play is about and explore that premise.</p><p></p><p>I don't think you can MEANINGFULLY have protagonism, because you cannot meaningfully assemble any sort of narrative with any tension at all, without that conflict (problematic feature as Ron puts it). Without that the game is simply toothless, it is nothing but a sort of equivalent of cosplay. Likewise if the PCs are not protagonists then the players are mere setting tourists, watching the story happen. This is exactly describing a whole category of trad play!</p><p></p><p>No. That is, I object to this formulation because you are destroying the distinction between two very different things! Wandering around in a module working through the encounters - albeit you may have considerable leeway in how and when you address them - does not equate to the sort of play you get in Dungeon World where the PCs engage propositions that are largely authored by the players, and if pre-authored content appears it is only in REACTION to what the players have done. These are different things!</p><p></p><p>Well, I disagree. You are welcome to your opinion, though I would point out that an entire movement of RPG game design has produced many successful games with a starting point being Ron's essays. I'd also point out that we should not go entirely overboard and focus too much on what one guy said 20 years ago. There's a DEEP literature that has arisen around Narrativist play. Some of it contradicts Edwards, some ignores him, some validates at least some of what he said. Either way, it is inarguably a basis for a lot of modern RPG design.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 9317241, member: 82106"] Not in my experience. Lets take an example: The classic 5e module Lost Mine of Phandelver. There are a number of locations in this module, but they are all pre-authored and each one offers a limited set of outcomes. While you can visit some of them out of order, or even skip certain ones, the overall plot arc is entirely 'canned'. The PCs will go to several locations, fight things/negotiate/investigate - which it is being determined by the location, not the PCs generally speaking. Eventually they will end up at the mine, where they will fight certain opponents, again maybe varying the order or avoiding some of them. There's only very shallow protagonism here, and no Story Now character to the thing at all. What happens in most RPGs is not what I would call Narrativist play, in which the players, through the orientation of their PCs to the central premise, define what play is about and explore that premise. I don't think you can MEANINGFULLY have protagonism, because you cannot meaningfully assemble any sort of narrative with any tension at all, without that conflict (problematic feature as Ron puts it). Without that the game is simply toothless, it is nothing but a sort of equivalent of cosplay. Likewise if the PCs are not protagonists then the players are mere setting tourists, watching the story happen. This is exactly describing a whole category of trad play! No. That is, I object to this formulation because you are destroying the distinction between two very different things! Wandering around in a module working through the encounters - albeit you may have considerable leeway in how and when you address them - does not equate to the sort of play you get in Dungeon World where the PCs engage propositions that are largely authored by the players, and if pre-authored content appears it is only in REACTION to what the players have done. These are different things! Well, I disagree. You are welcome to your opinion, though I would point out that an entire movement of RPG game design has produced many successful games with a starting point being Ron's essays. I'd also point out that we should not go entirely overboard and focus too much on what one guy said 20 years ago. There's a DEEP literature that has arisen around Narrativist play. Some of it contradicts Edwards, some ignores him, some validates at least some of what he said. Either way, it is inarguably a basis for a lot of modern RPG design. [/QUOTE]
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