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What makes an TTRPG a "Narrative Game" (Daggerheart Discussion)
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 9331452" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>No. The events of play are not assemblages of anything, any more than any other story is an assemblage of elements.</p><p></p><p>I don't really need to read more on post-classical narratology. I'm a professional philosopher. I have published work on philosophy of language. I also know what <em>supervenience</em> is: I don't work in philosophy of mind, but I've got a fairly good grasp of where the field was up to about 30 years ago, when supervenience and functionalist models of the mind were all the rage.</p><p></p><p>As I posted, the first example of ergodic literature I thought of was a Choose Your Own Adventure, and lo and behold there it is on the Wikipedia page. I understand what the concept is.</p><p></p><p>But the concepts of ludonarrative and ergodic literature are applicable only to railroads - eg CYOA, video games, perhaps the DL modules. It's also plausible to say, in these cases, that the story supervenes on the assemblages, in that the assemblages might change - eg a new image is incorporated into the video game, or a new pathway is incorporated into the CYOA, but the story doesn't change.</p><p></p><p>There is no supervenience on assemblages in the case of non-railroad RPGing. The story of Aedhros hoping to find a helpful necromancer to save the dying Alicia, and him instead seeing Thoth step out from his secret workshop exit onto the docks, doesn't supervene on any assemblages. It was created, by a joint effort, by my friend and me, prompted by a mixture of prior fiction, Circles check results, and our own wild imaginations.</p><p></p><p>Without meaning to be rude, I'm not sure that you know what <em>supervenience</em> means when used in a philosophical context.</p><p></p><p>To say that <em>A supervenes on B</em> means that there can be no change in A without a change in B; but that the reverse does not hold, that is, that (certain) changes in B may occur without a change in A. The concept is used most often to explain physicalist but non-identity accounts of the dependence of the mental on the physical: that is, the claim is that there can be no change in mental states without a change in physical states, but that multiple different physical states can instantiate the same mental state. The claim is normally associated with functional accounts of the mind, because the same functional state (A) can be instantiated by different physical states (B).</p><p></p><p>To say that a story supervenes on certain assemblages means to say that the assemblages <em>determine</em> the story, but that the assemblages might change and yet determine the same story. Above, I gave a simple example of how this might occur.</p><p></p><p>Stories that are created when playing Burning Wheel don't supervene on any assemblages. They are created by the RPGers, using the rules of Burning Wheel together with certain fiction inspired by or derived from Burning Wheel.</p><p></p><p>I don't really know what this means. But I note that, if it is true, it is as true of the reader of "ordinary" literature as or ergodic literature.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 9331452, member: 42582"] No. The events of play are not assemblages of anything, any more than any other story is an assemblage of elements. I don't really need to read more on post-classical narratology. I'm a professional philosopher. I have published work on philosophy of language. I also know what [I]supervenience[/I] is: I don't work in philosophy of mind, but I've got a fairly good grasp of where the field was up to about 30 years ago, when supervenience and functionalist models of the mind were all the rage. As I posted, the first example of ergodic literature I thought of was a Choose Your Own Adventure, and lo and behold there it is on the Wikipedia page. I understand what the concept is. But the concepts of ludonarrative and ergodic literature are applicable only to railroads - eg CYOA, video games, perhaps the DL modules. It's also plausible to say, in these cases, that the story supervenes on the assemblages, in that the assemblages might change - eg a new image is incorporated into the video game, or a new pathway is incorporated into the CYOA, but the story doesn't change. There is no supervenience on assemblages in the case of non-railroad RPGing. The story of Aedhros hoping to find a helpful necromancer to save the dying Alicia, and him instead seeing Thoth step out from his secret workshop exit onto the docks, doesn't supervene on any assemblages. It was created, by a joint effort, by my friend and me, prompted by a mixture of prior fiction, Circles check results, and our own wild imaginations. Without meaning to be rude, I'm not sure that you know what [I]supervenience[/I] means when used in a philosophical context. To say that [I]A supervenes on B[/I] means that there can be no change in A without a change in B; but that the reverse does not hold, that is, that (certain) changes in B may occur without a change in A. The concept is used most often to explain physicalist but non-identity accounts of the dependence of the mental on the physical: that is, the claim is that there can be no change in mental states without a change in physical states, but that multiple different physical states can instantiate the same mental state. The claim is normally associated with functional accounts of the mind, because the same functional state (A) can be instantiated by different physical states (B). To say that a story supervenes on certain assemblages means to say that the assemblages [I]determine[/I] the story, but that the assemblages might change and yet determine the same story. Above, I gave a simple example of how this might occur. Stories that are created when playing Burning Wheel don't supervene on any assemblages. They are created by the RPGers, using the rules of Burning Wheel together with certain fiction inspired by or derived from Burning Wheel. I don't really know what this means. But I note that, if it is true, it is as true of the reader of "ordinary" literature as or ergodic literature. [/QUOTE]
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