Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
What makes us care about combat balance in D&D?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 6663814" data-attributes="member: 6696971"><p>Amusingly this is pretty much what I thought when I read Zeuel's post as well!</p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>Hatee hatee hatee ho!</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I know pretty much nothing about Starcraft (you're in a spaceship fighter and you shoot at things...probably), but the Street Fighter II analogy seems on point and then the extension into 4e (especially in the assymetrical leveraging of the action economy betwixt classes and builds). I'm going to dovetail from that into what got me thinking about this in the present moment (that isn't to say it is something foreign to me, only topical with my present gaming).</p><p></p><p>So it looks like we're potentially going to transition our (what would be 7th level assuming the PCs survive) Dungeon World game to 4e (PCs built at late paragon; 19th level). In Dungeon World, one of the PCs is an Elf Arcane Duelist with multi into Wizard (attached). Basically that is a 1 page character sheet (the wizard moves and spells in the spellbook makes up the rest). The character, in terms of the play procedures of Dungeon World interfacing with the PC build scheme, is not complex at all. It is a powerful character with dynamic options, no doubt. However, the simple (not simplistic) and 1st order nature of Dungeon World play procedures ensure that balance is brutally transparent (intraparty and PC:monster) and intuitive. There is no initiative nor action economy so we can easily resolve player invoked moves just by consulting the fiction and creating danger, defying danger, resolving melee skirmishers (etc etc) with trivial ease. Consequently, there is never a threat that the system will go off the rails balance-wise (due to complex PC build synergies, novas, or action economy hijinx).</p><p></p><p>Consider the PC that was built for the transition to 4e:</p><p></p><p>[sblock]====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======</p><p>Otthor, level 19</p><p>Wood Elf, Wizard (Bladesinger), Spellstorm Mage</p><p>Blade Magic Option: Rapier</p><p>Background: Occupation - Military (+2 to Athletics)</p><p>Theme: Guardian</p><p> </p><p>FINAL ABILITY SCORES</p><p>STR 14, CON 14, DEX 20, INT 22, WIS 14, CHA 10</p><p> </p><p>STARTING ABILITY SCORES</p><p>STR 12, CON 12, DEX 14, INT 16, WIS 13, CHA 9</p><p> </p><p> </p><p>AC: 34 Fort: 31 Ref: 31 Will: 32</p><p>HP: 116 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 29</p><p> </p><p>TRAINED SKILLS</p><p>Acrobatics +19, Arcana +20, Athletics +17, Endurance +15, Heal +16, Nature +18</p><p> </p><p>UNTRAINED SKILLS</p><p>Bluff +11, Diplomacy +11, Dungeoneering +13, History +17, Insight +15, Intimidate +13, Perception +17, Religion +17, Stealth +19, Streetwise +11, Thievery +15</p><p> </p><p>POWERS</p><p>Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack</p><p>Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack</p><p>Guardian Attack: Guardian's Counter</p><p>Elf Racial Power: Elven Accuracy</p><p>Wizard Utility: Suggestion</p><p>Wizard Utility: Spook</p><p>Wizard Utility: Mage Hand</p><p>Wizard Utility: Bladesong</p><p>Wizard Attack: Unseen Hand</p><p>Wizard Attack: Dazzling Sunray</p><p>Wizard Attack: Lightning Ring</p><p>Wizard Attack 1: Thunderwave</p><p>Wizard Attack 1: Glorious Presence</p><p>Wizard Attack 1: Charm of Misplaced Wrath</p><p>Wizard Attack 1: Magic Missile</p><p>Wizard Utility 2: Herbal Healing</p><p>Wizard Utility 2: Moonstride</p><p>Wizard Attack 3: Color Spray</p><p>Wizard Attack 3: Icy Rays</p><p>Wizard Utility 6: Fire Shield</p><p>Heal Utility (2 as 6): Iron Resurgence</p><p>Wizard Attack 7: Fire Sea Travel</p><p>Wizard Attack 7: Lightning Bolt</p><p>Wizard Utility 10: Arcane Gate</p><p>Wizard Utility 10: Mass Resistance</p><p>Endurance Utility 10: Enter the Crucible</p><p>Spellstorm Mage Attack 11: Storm Cage</p><p>Spellstorm Mage Utility 12: Sudden Storm</p><p>Wizard Attack 13: Dark Gathering</p><p>Wizard Attack 13: Prismatic Burst</p><p>Elf Utility 16: Communion</p><p>Wizard Attack 17: Wand Coupling</p><p>Wizard Attack 17: Dancing Flames</p><p> </p><p>FEATS</p><p>Level 1: Brawling Warrior</p><p>Level 2: Encouraging Shield</p><p>Level 4: War Wizard's Expertise</p><p>Level 6: Stout Shield</p><p>Level 8: Improved Defenses</p><p>Level 10: Jack of All Trades</p><p>Level 11: Armor Proficiency: Hide</p><p>Level 12: Striking Resurgence</p><p>Level 14: Deft Blade</p><p>Level 16: Battle Awareness</p><p>Level 18: Agile Athlete</p><p> </p><p>ITEMS</p><p>Ring of Fury x1</p><p>Bracers of Mighty Striking (paragon tier) x1</p><p>Acrobat Boots x1</p><p>Elven Cloak +4 x1</p><p>Feral Feyhide Armor +4 x1</p><p>Strikebacks x1</p><p>Battlemaster's Rapier +4 x1</p><p>Belt of Breaching x1</p><p>Pennant Helm x1</p><p>Master's Wand of Thunderwave +1 x1</p><p>====== End ======[/sblock]</p><p></p><p>Now he and I have been down this road before as he played an Eladrin Bladesinger in my last 1-30 game (reskinned Monk for Heroic). This build has its share of differences but there are going to be some inevitable similarities. My 4e games feature 2 combats per day (generally). Just perusing this, this character is going to be looking at (non-standard action) action economy stuff like this:</p><p></p><p><strong><em>No Actions:</em></strong></p><p></p><p>* AW Bladespell triggered on MBA during your turn</p><p>* 7 Lightning damage to all enemies within 10 sq on Bloodied</p><p>* Spend HS and teleport 5 sq when reducing enemy to 0</p><p></p><p><strong><em>Free Actions:</em></strong></p><p></p><p>* 1/encounter reroll attack</p><p>* 1/encounter + 1 to hit or AC</p><p>* 1/day Thunderwave after Wand Coupling Daily</p><p>* 1/day make 2 MBAs when Bloodied</p><p></p><p><strong><em>Opportunity Actions:</em></strong></p><p></p><p>* Basically an endless supply of MBA ripostes while Bladesong is active (which will be nearly every round of the day)</p><p></p><p><strong><em>Immediate Actions:</em></strong></p><p></p><p>* 1/encounter MBA after attack on ally or enemy shift</p><p>* 1/encounter shift adjacent to ally, eat attack intended for them, then MBA triggering enemy </p><p>* 1/encounter MBA when adjacent enemy hits you</p><p>* 1/encounter shift 2 and EoYNT (instead of Fire Shield) when enemy moves adjacent</p><p></p><p><strong><em>Minor Actions: </em></strong> </p><p></p><p>* 2/per encounter Bladesong for 4 rounds/combat (recharges as minor actions with 2 dailies)</p><p>* 3/per day MBA after spell (1.5/encounter)</p><p>* 1/encounter ally gets HP = HS and you get a bunch of temp HP</p><p>* 1/encounter you make save and use Second Wind which gives a Free Action (hijinx) MBA + spend HS</p><p>* 1/day spend HS for resist 10 all rest encounter and no Weakness</p><p>* 1/day Fire Shield - 10 cold/fire resist and 2d6 + 6 fire damage 1/turn when attacked (further action economy stuff)</p><p>* 1/day Mass Resistance or Arcane Gate</p><p>* AW stand up from prone</p><p>* 1/day spend an HS, gain no HP but all allies can spend HS</p><p></p><p></p><p>Might have missed something, but I think I got it all. Holy crap (and the 2nd PC is a Ranger!). Now this isn't remotely daunting in terms of mental overhead and table handling time for us (we can move through 4e combats swiftly and, rather than being a problem for pacing, off-turn damage actions amplify that speed). I'm not engaging the conversation on those grounds. I'm just looking at this from (1) and Initiative (nova with AP)/Action Economy and (2) PC build complexity perspective. In light of the above, 4e is an amazing piece of engineering. The encounter budgeting system is robust to all of those complexities, those synergies, and action economy hijinx. Truly marvelous. </p><p></p><p>But consider just how many vectors must be considered, how many 2nd and 3rd order interactions must be considered in order to keep the thing from going UTTERLY wobbly to the point of flat out unplayability.</p><p></p><p>The analog to the DW character in Cortex + Fantasy Heroic would be a cinch. It has different play procedures from DW, but the PC build mechanics, the simplified turn (action/reaction), and building of dice pools pretty much all work together to ensure that things stay as far away from "borked territory" as possible. </p><p></p><p>Ok, I'll stop now. This is what inspired me to write the lead post. D&D's initiative, action economy, and complex PC build mechanics are part of its core appeal. But make no mistake, that core appeal is equal parts devil (balance implications) and angel (fun and player agency).</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Manbearcat, post: 6663814, member: 6696971"] Amusingly this is pretty much what I thought when I read Zeuel's post as well! Hatee hatee hatee ho! I know pretty much nothing about Starcraft (you're in a spaceship fighter and you shoot at things...probably), but the Street Fighter II analogy seems on point and then the extension into 4e (especially in the assymetrical leveraging of the action economy betwixt classes and builds). I'm going to dovetail from that into what got me thinking about this in the present moment (that isn't to say it is something foreign to me, only topical with my present gaming). So it looks like we're potentially going to transition our (what would be 7th level assuming the PCs survive) Dungeon World game to 4e (PCs built at late paragon; 19th level). In Dungeon World, one of the PCs is an Elf Arcane Duelist with multi into Wizard (attached). Basically that is a 1 page character sheet (the wizard moves and spells in the spellbook makes up the rest). The character, in terms of the play procedures of Dungeon World interfacing with the PC build scheme, is not complex at all. It is a powerful character with dynamic options, no doubt. However, the simple (not simplistic) and 1st order nature of Dungeon World play procedures ensure that balance is brutally transparent (intraparty and PC:monster) and intuitive. There is no initiative nor action economy so we can easily resolve player invoked moves just by consulting the fiction and creating danger, defying danger, resolving melee skirmishers (etc etc) with trivial ease. Consequently, there is never a threat that the system will go off the rails balance-wise (due to complex PC build synergies, novas, or action economy hijinx). Consider the PC that was built for the transition to 4e: [sblock]====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ====== Otthor, level 19 Wood Elf, Wizard (Bladesinger), Spellstorm Mage Blade Magic Option: Rapier Background: Occupation - Military (+2 to Athletics) Theme: Guardian FINAL ABILITY SCORES STR 14, CON 14, DEX 20, INT 22, WIS 14, CHA 10 STARTING ABILITY SCORES STR 12, CON 12, DEX 14, INT 16, WIS 13, CHA 9 AC: 34 Fort: 31 Ref: 31 Will: 32 HP: 116 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 29 TRAINED SKILLS Acrobatics +19, Arcana +20, Athletics +17, Endurance +15, Heal +16, Nature +18 UNTRAINED SKILLS Bluff +11, Diplomacy +11, Dungeoneering +13, History +17, Insight +15, Intimidate +13, Perception +17, Religion +17, Stealth +19, Streetwise +11, Thievery +15 POWERS Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack Guardian Attack: Guardian's Counter Elf Racial Power: Elven Accuracy Wizard Utility: Suggestion Wizard Utility: Spook Wizard Utility: Mage Hand Wizard Utility: Bladesong Wizard Attack: Unseen Hand Wizard Attack: Dazzling Sunray Wizard Attack: Lightning Ring Wizard Attack 1: Thunderwave Wizard Attack 1: Glorious Presence Wizard Attack 1: Charm of Misplaced Wrath Wizard Attack 1: Magic Missile Wizard Utility 2: Herbal Healing Wizard Utility 2: Moonstride Wizard Attack 3: Color Spray Wizard Attack 3: Icy Rays Wizard Utility 6: Fire Shield Heal Utility (2 as 6): Iron Resurgence Wizard Attack 7: Fire Sea Travel Wizard Attack 7: Lightning Bolt Wizard Utility 10: Arcane Gate Wizard Utility 10: Mass Resistance Endurance Utility 10: Enter the Crucible Spellstorm Mage Attack 11: Storm Cage Spellstorm Mage Utility 12: Sudden Storm Wizard Attack 13: Dark Gathering Wizard Attack 13: Prismatic Burst Elf Utility 16: Communion Wizard Attack 17: Wand Coupling Wizard Attack 17: Dancing Flames FEATS Level 1: Brawling Warrior Level 2: Encouraging Shield Level 4: War Wizard's Expertise Level 6: Stout Shield Level 8: Improved Defenses Level 10: Jack of All Trades Level 11: Armor Proficiency: Hide Level 12: Striking Resurgence Level 14: Deft Blade Level 16: Battle Awareness Level 18: Agile Athlete ITEMS Ring of Fury x1 Bracers of Mighty Striking (paragon tier) x1 Acrobat Boots x1 Elven Cloak +4 x1 Feral Feyhide Armor +4 x1 Strikebacks x1 Battlemaster's Rapier +4 x1 Belt of Breaching x1 Pennant Helm x1 Master's Wand of Thunderwave +1 x1 ====== End ======[/sblock] Now he and I have been down this road before as he played an Eladrin Bladesinger in my last 1-30 game (reskinned Monk for Heroic). This build has its share of differences but there are going to be some inevitable similarities. My 4e games feature 2 combats per day (generally). Just perusing this, this character is going to be looking at (non-standard action) action economy stuff like this: [B][I]No Actions:[/I][/B] * AW Bladespell triggered on MBA during your turn * 7 Lightning damage to all enemies within 10 sq on Bloodied * Spend HS and teleport 5 sq when reducing enemy to 0 [B][I]Free Actions:[/I][/B] * 1/encounter reroll attack * 1/encounter + 1 to hit or AC * 1/day Thunderwave after Wand Coupling Daily * 1/day make 2 MBAs when Bloodied [B][I]Opportunity Actions:[/I][/B] * Basically an endless supply of MBA ripostes while Bladesong is active (which will be nearly every round of the day) [B][I]Immediate Actions:[/I][/B] * 1/encounter MBA after attack on ally or enemy shift * 1/encounter shift adjacent to ally, eat attack intended for them, then MBA triggering enemy * 1/encounter MBA when adjacent enemy hits you * 1/encounter shift 2 and EoYNT (instead of Fire Shield) when enemy moves adjacent [B][I]Minor Actions: [/I][/B] * 2/per encounter Bladesong for 4 rounds/combat (recharges as minor actions with 2 dailies) * 3/per day MBA after spell (1.5/encounter) * 1/encounter ally gets HP = HS and you get a bunch of temp HP * 1/encounter you make save and use Second Wind which gives a Free Action (hijinx) MBA + spend HS * 1/day spend HS for resist 10 all rest encounter and no Weakness * 1/day Fire Shield - 10 cold/fire resist and 2d6 + 6 fire damage 1/turn when attacked (further action economy stuff) * 1/day Mass Resistance or Arcane Gate * AW stand up from prone * 1/day spend an HS, gain no HP but all allies can spend HS Might have missed something, but I think I got it all. Holy crap (and the 2nd PC is a Ranger!). Now this isn't remotely daunting in terms of mental overhead and table handling time for us (we can move through 4e combats swiftly and, rather than being a problem for pacing, off-turn damage actions amplify that speed). I'm not engaging the conversation on those grounds. I'm just looking at this from (1) and Initiative (nova with AP)/Action Economy and (2) PC build complexity perspective. In light of the above, 4e is an amazing piece of engineering. The encounter budgeting system is robust to all of those complexities, those synergies, and action economy hijinx. Truly marvelous. But consider just how many vectors must be considered, how many 2nd and 3rd order interactions must be considered in order to keep the thing from going UTTERLY wobbly to the point of flat out unplayability. The analog to the DW character in Cortex + Fantasy Heroic would be a cinch. It has different play procedures from DW, but the PC build mechanics, the simplified turn (action/reaction), and building of dice pools pretty much all work together to ensure that things stay as far away from "borked territory" as possible. Ok, I'll stop now. This is what inspired me to write the lead post. D&D's initiative, action economy, and complex PC build mechanics are part of its core appeal. But make no mistake, that core appeal is equal parts devil (balance implications) and angel (fun and player agency). [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
What makes us care about combat balance in D&D?
Top