What should an epic xxx (3.5) be able to do?

[Kerrick]

I'm hoping there are still enough grognards hanging around here to help me out with this one. I'm working on epic progressions for the base classes, from L21-40. With my revised classes, they already get a bunch of scaling/repeatable abilities, but I want to add in more generic abilities like they get at L1-20, to keep them interesting. I've got some vague ideas:


Bards: Bardic music is divided into four groups: battle hymns, buffing, countermagic, and enchantment. I changed it so that you have to make a Perform DC; every 5 points above the DC increases the save or effects; at DC +20 it's widened, at DC +40, it's extended, and at DC +60, it's empowered.

Clerics: Yugh, clerics. I decided to just give them a pool of abilities to choose from.

Druids: Same here, really... I cut wild shape back so it's no longer their central ability, kept the generic druid stuff (and added a few more), and added some selectable abilities, along with favored terrain. I'm thinking that at epic, druids can extend this to planar terrains - in 1E, they could enter and travel in the various Elemental Planes, so why not just extend this theme to all planes?

Fighters: Fighters get combat style abilities (so any suggestions for really high-powered stuff would be good here), along with generic stuff to shore up their weaknesses like uncanny dodge and iron mind (mettle).

Monk: Monks have fighting styles; you'd really have to see the monk yourself, because it would take too long to explain here.

Paladin: Paladins get auras and divine touch (they can heal poisons, disease, and such with their lay on hands ability).

Ranger: Rangers get favored terrains (like the druid, I want to extend this to planar terrains), tracking (likewise - I could see an epic ranger being able to track someone across the Astral), and a pool of archery abilities, along with aspect of the beast (they can assume an animal's "essence" to grant them bonuses; maybe I could do this for magical beasts?).

Rogue: Rogues have talents at all levels, not just 10+, but they're divided into tiers for balance; otherwise they're unchanged. I'm thinking I could steal some things from epic PrCs to fill this one out.

Sorcerer: Whoo... sorcerers have bloodlines, whereby tapping into the power of their heritage gives them more power, but also wreaks physical changes. This would be very difficult to do in epic (I don't want a Draconic sorcerer changing into a full dragon), so I'm not sure what to do here. Otherwise, all they get are generic metamagic abilities every 5 levels.

Wizards: Wizards just get school abilities, similar to Pathfinder's (but more balanced). I might allow them to take a second school of specialization and remove one of their banned schools, but that might make them too powerful.

If anyone wants to see the classes themselves for ideas (or just to see what I did), you can view them here. Any and all ideas are welcome.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Kerrick mate!

I take it you saw my attempt 'back in the day'?

Immortality

Immortality

Immortality

 

[Real Sorceror]

Howdy, I don't know if this will help, but I started a similar project at Dicefreaks: Dicefreaks d20 Community • View topic - Possible Epic Class Features

Its more geared toward Pathfinder and DF rules, so it may be more powerful than what you'd like but hopefully it'll at least provide ideas.

 

[Belzamus]

Its more geared toward Pathfinder and DF rules, so it may be more powerful than what you'd like but hopefully it'll at least provide ideas.

You say this...on the Immortals Handbook forum?

Of course, Kerrick might be looking for something a little more restrained.

 

[Real Sorceror]

You say this...on the Immortals Handbook forum?

Of course, Kerrick might be looking for something a little more restrained.

Do'h! Sorry, sometimes I say that as a reflex. Whenever I posted my stuff on the actual Pathfinder boards they thought it was a bit overpowered, but I feel it actually could use something extra under UK's rules.

Actually, the Dicefreaks crew is working on their own 21-40ish progression. They have some good ideas but their progress has been a little slower than I'd like: Dicefreaks d20 Community • View topic - Brainstorming Epic

 

[Kerrick]

Hey Kerrick mate!

I take it you saw my attempt 'back in the day'?

Immortality

Immortality

Immortality

Yeah, but I want something besides repetitive abilities. No offense, but those classes are just... boring.

Howdy, I don't know if this will help, but I started a similar project at Dicefreaks: Dicefreaks d20 Community • View topic - Possible Epic Class Features

Its more geared toward Pathfinder and DF rules, so it may be more powerful than what you'd like but hopefully it'll at least provide ideas.

Hmm. I stopped by DF a couple weeks ago, for the first time in a few years, to see if I could find anything, but I seem to have missed this and the other topic. My system is closer to 3.5 power level than PF, but that's okay - I can take the concept and mold it to fit my rules. Thanks!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Kerrick mate!

Yeah, but I want something besides repetitive abilities. No offense, but those classes are just... boring!

DUDE are you for real!? My classes wiped the official ones out! 'Repetitive Abilities' indeed...more like abilities based around strong themes.

You need to start playing 4E mate!

Interested to hear what you consider an interesting class?

 

[Kerrick]

DUDE are you for real!? My classes wiped the official ones out! 'Repetitive Abilities' indeed...more like abilities based around strong themes.

That's not hard, all things considered. But seriously... the fighter revolves around: increasing bonuses to attacks and damage, and increasing number of weapons he can use. While thematically appropriate, it's not very interesting.

Now, the barbarian does get some interesting abilities - roar, ancestral spirits, blood rage.

I didn't see the monk the first time, because the link wasn't listed on the sidebar. I guessed there might be a third class, so I typed in "sermon6c.htm". Looking at it now... it's pretty good. I think the 36th level ability, Master of Spring, is a little weak, though - immortality is nice, but surely they'd have it before then?

You need to start playing 4E mate!

Yeah, yeah. I actually got into a 3.5 group last week, for the first time in a year or so. Gods, it's nice to be playing again.

Interested to hear what you consider an interesting class?

Okay, I'll retract my previous comment, but I'll show you what I did. This encompasses some of changes elsewhere in the system, like weapon groups (fighters can specialize in several groups, which is basically the same as your fighter) and changing crit/SA immunity to resistance (a legendary rogue ability will be bypassing part of a creature's resistance to SA).

Mostly, it's a matter of design philosphy. You choose to simply expand existing options, while I prefer to provide customization through class abilities, rather than feats alone - hence pools of abilities, combat paths, varying paths of bardic songs, etc. I don't want every L40 monk to look the same because they all got the same class abilities; by providing a broaded base of abilities for the class, you eliminate the need for PrCs, goofy feats, and multiclassing to achieve the desired archetype/effect/concept/whatever.

This is mainly why I'm looking for legendary class progressions - I want to keep adding new and interesting abilities, instead of just extending the existing progressions like they do now. I mean, yeah - things like sneak attack will keep going, but if that's the only thing you get, that's not very fun.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Kerrick mate!

That's not hard, all things considered. But seriously... the fighter revolves around: increasing bonuses to attacks and damage, and increasing number of weapons he can use. While thematically appropriate, it's not very interesting.

What my class build does is take away the pedantery of using feats to make statistical changes meaning players can take the more flavourful feats.

Your build seems to have the opposite approach, adding the more flavourful feats/abilities into the core class progression.

Now, the barbarian does get some interesting abilities - roar, ancestral spirits, blood rage.

I knew I was doing something right.

I didn't see the monk the first time, because the link wasn't listed on the sidebar. I guessed there might be a third class, so I typed in "sermon6c.htm". Looking at it now... it's pretty good. I think the 36th level ability, Master of Spring, is a little weak, though - immortality is nice, but surely they'd have it before then?

Well they could always gain immortality the normal way rather than through levelling up.

Yeah, yeah. I actually got into a 3.5 group last week, for the first time in a year or so. Gods, it's nice to be playing again.

I know exactly what you mean.

Okay, I'll retract my previous comment,

but I'll show you what I did. This encompasses some of changes elsewhere in the system, like weapon groups (fighters can specialize in several groups, which is basically the same as your fighter) and changing crit/SA immunity to resistance (a legendary rogue ability will be bypassing part of a creature's resistance to SA).

I think you could do something similar using feat trees to point players in the right direction.

But I like your approach in that its a bit more 4E.

Mostly, it's a matter of design philosphy. You choose to simply expand existing options, while I prefer to provide customization through class abilities, rather than feats alone - hence pools of abilities, combat paths, varying paths of bardic songs, etc. I don't want every L40 monk to look the same because they all got the same class abilities; by providing a broaded base of abilities for the class, you eliminate the need for PrCs, goofy feats, and multiclassing to achieve the desired archetype/effect/concept/whatever.

Thats a double edged sword though. By eliminating the need for Prestige Classes you nerf one of 3Es greatest strengths (and consequently one of its biggest annoyances - I'll grant you).

This is mainly why I'm looking for legendary class progressions - I want to keep adding new and interesting abilities, instead of just extending the existing progressions like they do now. I mean, yeah - things like sneak attack will keep going, but if that's the only thing you get, that's not very fun.

Such endeavours would seem to be ultimately doomed to failure in 3E, since no matter how high you go someone will always want to play a higher level. But I applaud the work amigo.

 

[Kerrick]

What my class build does is take away the pedantery of using feats to make statistical changes meaning players can take the more flavourful feats.

True, but fighters get tons of feats anyway - that's why I decided to leave the weapon mastery stuff with the feats and simply add the cool abilities into the class itself.

I think you could do something similar using feat trees to point players in the right direction.

But unless you're doing something like PF, where they grant 1 feat/2 levels, it's going to be a feat tax. A simple rule change eliminates a bunch of extraneous feats and abilties. Streamlining = good.

But I like your approach in that its a bit more 4E.

Heh.

Thats a double edged sword though. By eliminating the need for Prestige Classes you nerf one of 3Es greatest strengths (and consequently one of its biggest annoyances - I'll grant you).

Not all PrCs, just a lot of them. I think we can both agree that there are way, way too many PrCs out there, and 85% of them suck, are worthless, and/or can be duplicated with feats or class abilities. What I did was give the base classes better abilities to encourage players to stay with them for more than 5-6 levels, and to eliminate the need for many of these worthless PrCs. Now players can diversify without leaving their class, or they can choose PrCs that focus more closely on specific aspects of their character.

Such endeavours would seem to be ultimately doomed to failure in 3E, since no matter how high you go someone will always want to play a higher level. But I applaud the work amigo.

Well, yeah... but that's not my problem. I simply state that anything beyond 40th level is of questionable balance, and if they want to do it, that's their prerogative.