Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
What should Rogues do?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Crazy Jerome" data-source="post: 6026505" data-attributes="member: 54877"><p>Timely topic. I've been thinking on this for the last week, and I think I have a new way to frame the problem, even if I don't have an answer to it:</p><p> </p><p>We've been misconstruing the essential characteristics that define the rogue. Instead of skill money or trickster or stabber or thief, rogues are characters that swing back and forth between "gambler" and "plotter". </p><p> </p><p>That is, any adventurer can be a risk taker or a careful planner, or even vary a bit between the two depending upon situations, but rogues are practically defined as "more swings back and forth, more extreme swings, one extreme cycles into the other and back again". </p><p> </p><p>Take the 1E thief, for example. What is a backstab? It's the rogue "plotting" very carefully, maybe even over several rounds, for the big "gamble" payoff of doing a lot of damage all at once. The 3E and 4E sneak attack mechanic tries to fix the balance issues in the backstab by making it more reliable, but while fun in a "swashbuckling" style, that particular fix works counter to the essense of the rogue. I've noticed this in our Next playtest rogues by comparison. The effect is still a bit too reliable and repeatable (hide this round to strike next round), but they really enjoy that whole bit of planning for the big score. </p><p> </p><p>Then what about scouting and sneaking? Same deal. They work best when the rogue is needing to be careful because the risk/reward is stronger than normal. Sneak up on the orcs, then maybe the party can ambush them. Get spotted, the orcs will get to beat on the rogue separated from his friends. I've seen this work well and not so well in the playtest. If I consciously put the rogue into a situation where they have some information, but can get more by getting closer, this dynamic works better. That is, you need decision points so the rogue can decide how big a gamble he wants to take.</p><p> </p><p>There are some possible analogs with climbing, using devices, picking locks, checking for traps, bluffing, etc, some more obvious than others. I think the rogue's abilities should reinforce this plotting/gambling dichotomy. Skill mastery should work on the same principle. When a rogue bluffs, he can set up the bluff for a potentially bigger payoff, but runs more risk when it fails.</p><p> </p><p>The exact mechanics to pull that off are tricky. Like I said, I don't have the answers. I do intuit that every rogue should always have at least some abilities that are gambling oriented, some that are plotting oriented, and a good mix that are both (such as a sneak attack that can't work without planning). Then ideally the choices for later abilities would also include a mix, such that a rogue makes subtle shifts to the playstyle towards more gambling or more plotting by those picks. The flavor of these picks on other questions can be all over the place. You can have "trickster" flavored abilities that cater to plotting, gambing, or the mix.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Crazy Jerome, post: 6026505, member: 54877"] Timely topic. I've been thinking on this for the last week, and I think I have a new way to frame the problem, even if I don't have an answer to it: We've been misconstruing the essential characteristics that define the rogue. Instead of skill money or trickster or stabber or thief, rogues are characters that swing back and forth between "gambler" and "plotter". That is, any adventurer can be a risk taker or a careful planner, or even vary a bit between the two depending upon situations, but rogues are practically defined as "more swings back and forth, more extreme swings, one extreme cycles into the other and back again". Take the 1E thief, for example. What is a backstab? It's the rogue "plotting" very carefully, maybe even over several rounds, for the big "gamble" payoff of doing a lot of damage all at once. The 3E and 4E sneak attack mechanic tries to fix the balance issues in the backstab by making it more reliable, but while fun in a "swashbuckling" style, that particular fix works counter to the essense of the rogue. I've noticed this in our Next playtest rogues by comparison. The effect is still a bit too reliable and repeatable (hide this round to strike next round), but they really enjoy that whole bit of planning for the big score. Then what about scouting and sneaking? Same deal. They work best when the rogue is needing to be careful because the risk/reward is stronger than normal. Sneak up on the orcs, then maybe the party can ambush them. Get spotted, the orcs will get to beat on the rogue separated from his friends. I've seen this work well and not so well in the playtest. If I consciously put the rogue into a situation where they have some information, but can get more by getting closer, this dynamic works better. That is, you need decision points so the rogue can decide how big a gamble he wants to take. There are some possible analogs with climbing, using devices, picking locks, checking for traps, bluffing, etc, some more obvious than others. I think the rogue's abilities should reinforce this plotting/gambling dichotomy. Skill mastery should work on the same principle. When a rogue bluffs, he can set up the bluff for a potentially bigger payoff, but runs more risk when it fails. The exact mechanics to pull that off are tricky. Like I said, I don't have the answers. I do intuit that every rogue should always have at least some abilities that are gambling oriented, some that are plotting oriented, and a good mix that are both (such as a sneak attack that can't work without planning). Then ideally the choices for later abilities would also include a mix, such that a rogue makes subtle shifts to the playstyle towards more gambling or more plotting by those picks. The flavor of these picks on other questions can be all over the place. You can have "trickster" flavored abilities that cater to plotting, gambing, or the mix. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
What should Rogues do?
Top