Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
What Should the Bard Be?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Willie the Duck" data-source="post: 9229803" data-attributes="member: 6799660"><p>See, I don't mind the bard being a 'back-up wizard*.' I think that worked at least as well as every other interpretation of bards. Obviously this only really works if they advance in casting more slowly than wizards (or otherwise cast less/less well). In 2e we appreciated having an alternate option with a bit more survivability and other tricks up their sleeves**, and isn't going to light up the battlefield with fireballs (at the levels we played a lot of), but had us covered for <em>detect magic, identify, knock, </em>and <em>spiderclimb</em>. That worked as a role. I would not have minded if the 5e bard had been the arcane 1/2-caster with mostly the same spell list as wizards. </p><p><span style="color: rgb(209, 213, 216)">*complaints going back to the beginning of the game about magic users/mages/wizards being the 'everything but healing' casters and how that can make them very same-y are valid and in general I agree. Just not going to single out the bard on that. </span></p><p><span style="color: rgb(209, 213, 216)">**see previous post about the actual class not exactly living up to the dream.</span></p><p></p><p>That said, completely other-role bards* are also a fine option, and I could get behind one of those as well. They should, IMO, either fill shoes similar to the martial classes--such that you would put them in a party with a cleric and a mage type--, or fill some of those... gatekey ability? ... roles that you otherwise needed the cleric and/or mage. I say that because BitD we all loved reading those classes like illusionist and druid (and in 2e psionicist), but they all ended up being 5th wheels because you still needed the thief to find traps, a magic user to identify magic items*<em>, clerics to remove curses**</em>, and so on. 5e has reduced this (notably with thief and cleric-as-hp-battery roles), but there still are some things I see make people really try to get a wizard/sorcerer and cleric (or lore bard dedicated to replicating one or the other, which is pretty much what I'm asking of this theoretical new bard) in their group. </p><p><span style="color: rgb(209, 213, 216)">*maybe with bespoke systems, though I'm iffy on 'different for the sake of different'</span></p><p><span style="color: rgb(209, 213, 216)">**and cast fly</span></p><p><span style="color: rgb(209, 213, 216)">***and let's be honest, get the group back to full HP at any reasonable rate</span></p><p></p><p>Honestly, this isn't too far from what the baseline bard does already -- give them a rapier and a 16 dex score and they hit* well enough until the lack of extra attack makes them fall behind. Give this theoretical new bard the option to pick Strength based weapons and medium or heavy armor (but no extra attack, maybe unless sub-class grants it) and I think it would work. </p><p><span style="color: rgb(209, 213, 216)">*light armor not near-keeping-up with medium/heavy unless you devote ASIs, along with lack of shield, makes <u>withstanding</u> combat a bit more of a challenge.</span></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Willie the Duck, post: 9229803, member: 6799660"] See, I don't mind the bard being a 'back-up wizard*.' I think that worked at least as well as every other interpretation of bards. Obviously this only really works if they advance in casting more slowly than wizards (or otherwise cast less/less well). In 2e we appreciated having an alternate option with a bit more survivability and other tricks up their sleeves**, and isn't going to light up the battlefield with fireballs (at the levels we played a lot of), but had us covered for [I]detect magic, identify, knock, [/I]and [I]spiderclimb[/I]. That worked as a role. I would not have minded if the 5e bard had been the arcane 1/2-caster with mostly the same spell list as wizards. [COLOR=rgb(209, 213, 216)]*complaints going back to the beginning of the game about magic users/mages/wizards being the 'everything but healing' casters and how that can make them very same-y are valid and in general I agree. Just not going to single out the bard on that. **see previous post about the actual class not exactly living up to the dream.[/COLOR] That said, completely other-role bards* are also a fine option, and I could get behind one of those as well. They should, IMO, either fill shoes similar to the martial classes--such that you would put them in a party with a cleric and a mage type--, or fill some of those... gatekey ability? ... roles that you otherwise needed the cleric and/or mage. I say that because BitD we all loved reading those classes like illusionist and druid (and in 2e psionicist), but they all ended up being 5th wheels because you still needed the thief to find traps, a magic user to identify magic items*[I], clerics to remove curses**[/I], and so on. 5e has reduced this (notably with thief and cleric-as-hp-battery roles), but there still are some things I see make people really try to get a wizard/sorcerer and cleric (or lore bard dedicated to replicating one or the other, which is pretty much what I'm asking of this theoretical new bard) in their group. [COLOR=rgb(209, 213, 216)]*maybe with bespoke systems, though I'm iffy on 'different for the sake of different' **and cast fly ***and let's be honest, get the group back to full HP at any reasonable rate[/COLOR] Honestly, this isn't too far from what the baseline bard does already -- give them a rapier and a 16 dex score and they hit* well enough until the lack of extra attack makes them fall behind. Give this theoretical new bard the option to pick Strength based weapons and medium or heavy armor (but no extra attack, maybe unless sub-class grants it) and I think it would work. [COLOR=rgb(209, 213, 216)]*light armor not near-keeping-up with medium/heavy unless you devote ASIs, along with lack of shield, makes [U]withstanding[/U] combat a bit more of a challenge.[/COLOR] [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
What Should the Bard Be?
Top