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What should the skill list look like?
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<blockquote data-quote="GameDoc" data-source="post: 6023480" data-attributes="member: 53915"><p>I think a skill needs to be limited to something that takes appreciable time and practice to develop over and above raw ability. So I agree with the previously stated idea that if you couldn't imagine a character with a high ability score not being able to do something, it's probably better left to an ability check.</p><p></p><p>Kicking in a door is an ability check (raw strength), picking the lock is a skill.</p><p></p><p>I also think if a skill represents something all adventurers do at some point (bluff, spot, stealth, and diplomacy come to mind) you need to carefully consider whether it's better to keep those as ability checks or go ahead and make them a skill that can be developed above and beyond an ability check.</p><p></p><p>Perhaps all characters get a few basic universal skills for free and without any training bonus just to say "adventurers can try these common tasks and improve them with experience". Backgrounds could still have common skills associated with them, granting the +3 training bonus. </p><p></p><p>I guess for me it has to do with parsimony during game play. In the second play test, it's been awkward for me to say "the rogue needs to make a spot check, everyone else make a wisdom check, and the elf wizard gets advantage" instead of jut saying "everyone make a spot check."</p><p></p><p>I think lore skills can probably be boiled down to 3: Natural Lore (the world, plants, animals, geology, ecology, etc.), Supernatural Lore (magic, religion, magical beasts, abberations, the planes, undead, devils, demons, etc.), and Cultural Lore (history, politics, art, philosophy, heraldry, customs, etc., as applied to the playable races and perhaps other common or frequently encountered humanoids or sapient beings with a culture).</p><p></p><p>I also think we should divorce skills from abilities. Intimidate is a good example provided in a previous post. I also think you should be able to, for example, make a Cultural Lore check based on Intelligence to recall some important details about a culture, but also use Cultural Lore with Charisma to interact with someone of another culture to make a good impression.</p><p></p><p>There may be times where two skills could apply. I'm trying to negotiate an alliance with this tribe of wild elves. It's a charisma based check, but do I use Diplomacy or Cultural Lore? In that case you could say, use the higher skill bonus and also take advantage for having the other skill (advantage could tap the same design space as 3e's skill synergy in a much more elegant way).</p><p></p><p>Finally, I think we need to consider how often two closely related skills actually occur witthout one another. Stealth became a single skill partially based on the realization that Move Silently and Hide as separate skills were rarely taken in the absence of the other. I think Open Locks and Find/Remove traps are ripe for being collapsed into one skill, "Locksmithing" or some such. I also wouldn't object to Bluff and Diplomacy being combined. Diplomats bluff all the time. And how many uses of Bluff have something to do with trying to convince another party to take or refrain from certain actions (Don't kil me, I can take you to the treasure!)</p><p></p><p>Anyway those are my thoughts. I'm less concerned with the skill list and more about the underlying principles for how it's constructed at this point. But if I were asked to make one it would probably be:</p><p></p><p></p><p>Acrobatics</p><p>Animal Handling</p><p>Cultural Lore</p><p>Healing</p><p>Insight</p><p>Intimidate</p><p>Locksmithing</p><p>Natural Lore</p><p>Negotiation</p><p>Perception</p><p>Sleight of Hand</p><p>Stealth</p><p>Streetwise </p><p>Supernatural Lore</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="GameDoc, post: 6023480, member: 53915"] I think a skill needs to be limited to something that takes appreciable time and practice to develop over and above raw ability. So I agree with the previously stated idea that if you couldn't imagine a character with a high ability score not being able to do something, it's probably better left to an ability check. Kicking in a door is an ability check (raw strength), picking the lock is a skill. I also think if a skill represents something all adventurers do at some point (bluff, spot, stealth, and diplomacy come to mind) you need to carefully consider whether it's better to keep those as ability checks or go ahead and make them a skill that can be developed above and beyond an ability check. Perhaps all characters get a few basic universal skills for free and without any training bonus just to say "adventurers can try these common tasks and improve them with experience". Backgrounds could still have common skills associated with them, granting the +3 training bonus. I guess for me it has to do with parsimony during game play. In the second play test, it's been awkward for me to say "the rogue needs to make a spot check, everyone else make a wisdom check, and the elf wizard gets advantage" instead of jut saying "everyone make a spot check." I think lore skills can probably be boiled down to 3: Natural Lore (the world, plants, animals, geology, ecology, etc.), Supernatural Lore (magic, religion, magical beasts, abberations, the planes, undead, devils, demons, etc.), and Cultural Lore (history, politics, art, philosophy, heraldry, customs, etc., as applied to the playable races and perhaps other common or frequently encountered humanoids or sapient beings with a culture). I also think we should divorce skills from abilities. Intimidate is a good example provided in a previous post. I also think you should be able to, for example, make a Cultural Lore check based on Intelligence to recall some important details about a culture, but also use Cultural Lore with Charisma to interact with someone of another culture to make a good impression. There may be times where two skills could apply. I'm trying to negotiate an alliance with this tribe of wild elves. It's a charisma based check, but do I use Diplomacy or Cultural Lore? In that case you could say, use the higher skill bonus and also take advantage for having the other skill (advantage could tap the same design space as 3e's skill synergy in a much more elegant way). Finally, I think we need to consider how often two closely related skills actually occur witthout one another. Stealth became a single skill partially based on the realization that Move Silently and Hide as separate skills were rarely taken in the absence of the other. I think Open Locks and Find/Remove traps are ripe for being collapsed into one skill, "Locksmithing" or some such. I also wouldn't object to Bluff and Diplomacy being combined. Diplomats bluff all the time. And how many uses of Bluff have something to do with trying to convince another party to take or refrain from certain actions (Don't kil me, I can take you to the treasure!) Anyway those are my thoughts. I'm less concerned with the skill list and more about the underlying principles for how it's constructed at this point. But if I were asked to make one it would probably be: Acrobatics Animal Handling Cultural Lore Healing Insight Intimidate Locksmithing Natural Lore Negotiation Perception Sleight of Hand Stealth Streetwise Supernatural Lore [/QUOTE]
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