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What Would You Want from PF2?
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<blockquote data-quote="CapnZapp" data-source="post: 7596330" data-attributes="member: 12731"><p>As I remember it 3.x sneak damage is similar to 5E sneak damage in that it barely allows the rogue to catch up to the average for a decently minmaxxed character.</p><p></p><p>Plus of course all the gotchas - there was a lot of monsters that represented a "screw you" to rogues by being immune or nearly so to sneak damage...</p><p></p><p>I could misremember but isn't 5E actually an improvement over 3E...? </p><p></p><p>While still vastly overestimating the whole sneak/disarm/thief deal (in how it is used to justify the rogue's average offense and poor defense)</p><p></p><p></p><p>I really don't wish to bring 4E into the discussion.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I do not believ you disagree when I say everybody agrees the 3.x Fighter is a bare-bones character that misses out on all the supernatural goodness that D&D offers. </p><p></p><p>Meaning, that if you only look at the basic combat rules chassi of d20, the Fighter is a decent enough class.</p><p></p><p>It is when you compare to almost every other class it fares so poorly. </p><p></p><p>5E makes Fighters much more empowered in contrast. Not so much by boosting the actual Fighters (although Action Surge is a great feature for a class-defining ability), but by restricting and constraining everybody else's magic. </p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes that's the point. By giving everybody good offense they have missed a great opportunity to add variety to the inter-party interaction. </p><p></p><p>(And to be specific: yet again hoses the rogue except in those parties where everybody is okay with the rogue player hogging the spotlight by sneaking off alone. Meaning that by not giving everybody good offense you can bring back the rogue to the fold - that is: granting it party-centric as opposed to individualistic abilities.</p><p></p><p>Of course, this scheme still falls apart if other classes outshine it in the DPS area. Which is why I believe that the Rogue - with access to little to no magics - needs to be the king of DPS. Everybody else, Paladins, Warlocks etc have other tricks up their sleeve.</p><p></p><p>Which brings me back to 5E sneak attack. Which I say shouldn't just be upped slightly (a few extra sneak dice), or even moderately (one sneak die every level as opposed to every other level). </p><p></p><p>No, we need something spectacular! Each sneak attack's damage should be multiplied by something like a d6!! Then and only then can we pare back those abilities that only encourage the player to avoid party-focused behaviors, such as sneaking off, hiding, not putting skin in the game, etc)</p><p></p><p></p><p>Absolutely. Doesn't mean we can't hope for something more ambitious and tactically interesting than 5E! <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="CapnZapp, post: 7596330, member: 12731"] As I remember it 3.x sneak damage is similar to 5E sneak damage in that it barely allows the rogue to catch up to the average for a decently minmaxxed character. Plus of course all the gotchas - there was a lot of monsters that represented a "screw you" to rogues by being immune or nearly so to sneak damage... I could misremember but isn't 5E actually an improvement over 3E...? While still vastly overestimating the whole sneak/disarm/thief deal (in how it is used to justify the rogue's average offense and poor defense) I really don't wish to bring 4E into the discussion. I do not believ you disagree when I say everybody agrees the 3.x Fighter is a bare-bones character that misses out on all the supernatural goodness that D&D offers. Meaning, that if you only look at the basic combat rules chassi of d20, the Fighter is a decent enough class. It is when you compare to almost every other class it fares so poorly. 5E makes Fighters much more empowered in contrast. Not so much by boosting the actual Fighters (although Action Surge is a great feature for a class-defining ability), but by restricting and constraining everybody else's magic. Yes that's the point. By giving everybody good offense they have missed a great opportunity to add variety to the inter-party interaction. (And to be specific: yet again hoses the rogue except in those parties where everybody is okay with the rogue player hogging the spotlight by sneaking off alone. Meaning that by not giving everybody good offense you can bring back the rogue to the fold - that is: granting it party-centric as opposed to individualistic abilities. Of course, this scheme still falls apart if other classes outshine it in the DPS area. Which is why I believe that the Rogue - with access to little to no magics - needs to be the king of DPS. Everybody else, Paladins, Warlocks etc have other tricks up their sleeve. Which brings me back to 5E sneak attack. Which I say shouldn't just be upped slightly (a few extra sneak dice), or even moderately (one sneak die every level as opposed to every other level). No, we need something spectacular! Each sneak attack's damage should be multiplied by something like a d6!! Then and only then can we pare back those abilities that only encourage the player to avoid party-focused behaviors, such as sneaking off, hiding, not putting skin in the game, etc) Absolutely. Doesn't mean we can't hope for something more ambitious and tactically interesting than 5E! :) [/QUOTE]
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