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What Would You Want from PF2?
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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 7597526" data-attributes="member: 996"><p>DPS is a pretty significant thing to make the bailiwick of one class - unless you only have a handful of classes. In 4e, for instance, Strikers had the "DPS crown," and the Rogue was a striker. If a Rogue was the only striker in the party, he'd be /the/ top damage-dealer. If he had another Striker rival, it'd be down to build & 'smart play' between them.</p><p></p><p>The 3.x 'battlefield control' range of fighter builds using reach, combat reflexes, & improved trip provided a fair amount of control, at least, relative to fighters in AD&D or 5e, add WWA and you could get 'crowd control' in the MMO sense, if I'm following that correctly, too. </p><p></p><p> That's a pretty fair argument for eliminating the rogue, completely. And I'm sure you've laid it out before. By the same token, this isn't the first time I've mentioned that you could prettymuch just merge the fighter and rogue into a single class, with all the toys each has ever gotten in every edition, and not have it exactly break the game, nor even push it's way above Tier 3.</p><p></p><p></p><p>That's not what the old saw about non-casters eventually getting to shine when casters run out of spells that you just repeated up-thread is saying?</p><p></p><p>It's not like it's ever worked too well, anyway. You could, in theory, festoon a TSR era fighter or thief with enough magic items to keep him relevant alongside casters, but it was a matter of DM fiat. 4e did come quite close to solving most balance issues, but not by giving everyone magic - indeed, you could flip the inherent bonus switch and not use magic items, at all, leaving only the Ritual feat as a means for non-casters to acquire magical options. Even in 5e, which has come closest to giving everyone magic, by giving every /class/ at least one magic-wielding sub-class, and even just considering those sub-classes, balance is pretty poor.</p><p></p><p></p><p>The early game sure got played that way, quite a lot. EGG often presented it that way, too. As a giant treasure-hunting exercise where PCs were rivals working together out of necessity while each trying to maximize their own personal gain.</p><p></p><p> I'm neither feeling nor getting a 'patiently' vibe, here. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p>But, seriously, once you bring the rogue up into the DPS stratosphere, you have to ask why it gets all those cool little out of combat toys and the fighter, even if he's up on the TANK promontory at comparable elevation, doesn't?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 7597526, member: 996"] DPS is a pretty significant thing to make the bailiwick of one class - unless you only have a handful of classes. In 4e, for instance, Strikers had the "DPS crown," and the Rogue was a striker. If a Rogue was the only striker in the party, he'd be /the/ top damage-dealer. If he had another Striker rival, it'd be down to build & 'smart play' between them. The 3.x 'battlefield control' range of fighter builds using reach, combat reflexes, & improved trip provided a fair amount of control, at least, relative to fighters in AD&D or 5e, add WWA and you could get 'crowd control' in the MMO sense, if I'm following that correctly, too. That's a pretty fair argument for eliminating the rogue, completely. And I'm sure you've laid it out before. By the same token, this isn't the first time I've mentioned that you could prettymuch just merge the fighter and rogue into a single class, with all the toys each has ever gotten in every edition, and not have it exactly break the game, nor even push it's way above Tier 3. That's not what the old saw about non-casters eventually getting to shine when casters run out of spells that you just repeated up-thread is saying? It's not like it's ever worked too well, anyway. You could, in theory, festoon a TSR era fighter or thief with enough magic items to keep him relevant alongside casters, but it was a matter of DM fiat. 4e did come quite close to solving most balance issues, but not by giving everyone magic - indeed, you could flip the inherent bonus switch and not use magic items, at all, leaving only the Ritual feat as a means for non-casters to acquire magical options. Even in 5e, which has come closest to giving everyone magic, by giving every /class/ at least one magic-wielding sub-class, and even just considering those sub-classes, balance is pretty poor. The early game sure got played that way, quite a lot. EGG often presented it that way, too. As a giant treasure-hunting exercise where PCs were rivals working together out of necessity while each trying to maximize their own personal gain. I'm neither feeling nor getting a 'patiently' vibe, here. ;) But, seriously, once you bring the rogue up into the DPS stratosphere, you have to ask why it gets all those cool little out of combat toys and the fighter, even if he's up on the TANK promontory at comparable elevation, doesn't? [/QUOTE]
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