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What Would You Want from PF2?
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<blockquote data-quote="Zardnaar" data-source="post: 7598289" data-attributes="member: 6716779"><p>D&D players I think like balance, just not as the be all and end all of D&D. Most games also don't go to the high levels so uber wizards aren't such a thing most of the time even in editions where they are broken. Its one thing I noticed with 2E a typical wizard was not as good as the 3E one but was still useful to have around along with a 2E fighter. The designers of 3E seemed big on giving players what they wanted but didn't consider DMs much, 4E tried to fix it but took the game in a way people, thought was worse than 3E.</p><p></p><p> Most of the classes are fine I think with a few exceptions like the Beastmaster and Shadow Monk. The reason Rogues don't deal more damage than fighters was it starts to make fighters pointless especially with dexterity already being so good. </p><p></p><p> So Capn Zapp really needs to rage about two feats in the PHB that enable the warrior types to deal a lot more damage than everyone else. Why 4E was brought up is that you are basically saying we need 4E type mechanics in the game without saying you want 4E. Since 4E was the only D&D that had the defender and striker concept and gave the classes mechanics to match that.</p><p></p><p> Even then I think the ideal 4E party was something like 3 strikers, 1 controller and a leader. If you kill stuff faster its the best debuff yeah?</p><p></p><p> In an earlier post I did provide the math about Rogues damage and some levels they do the most damage, and they are never really that far behind and if you dual wield (which you shoulf do except for some archetypes like mastermind) they tend to break even or be a head slightly. </p><p></p><p>Assuming you can sneak attack (sometimes this is a whiff especially when you win initiative a lot).</p><p>Rogue level 1 Damage 1d8+ 2d6+ ability mod (dual wield+ sneak attack) avg dmg 14.5</p><p>Fighter 1d8+2+ ability mod (duelist) 9.5 (AC will be 3 higher though)</p><p>Fighter 2 2d6+ ability mod, reroll 1s (great weapon) Avg Damage around 11 IIRC (I'm not good at working out reroll averages)</p><p>Fighter 3 1d8+ ability mod+ 1d6+ ability mod (dual wield) avg damage 14</p><p></p><p>This also ignores spike ad on like action surge, rage, smites etc. Dual wielding alos doesn't scale well at higher levels but the Rogue is winning here. Level 3 the Rogues damage can creep up to 18 which is roughly twice he damage of a sword and board fighter.</p><p></p><p>Level 5 big change though. I'll leave the ability score at 16, in a real game it will depend odds are a Rogue will boost dex to 18.</p><p></p><p>Rogue Avg damage 21.5</p><p>Fighter 19</p><p>Fighter 2 22</p><p>Fighter 3 21.5</p><p></p><p> The duel wielding fighter here is very competitive, in a real game it will deal more damage than the Rogue due to sneak attack whiffing sometimes. </p><p></p><p>Level 7 the Rogues damage scales up to 25, level 9 28.5 so from level 5-10 the Rogue is competitive/dealing the most damage on a round by round basis.</p><p></p><p>Level 11</p><p>Rogue 32</p><p>Fighter 1 28.5</p><p>Fighter 2 33</p><p>Fighter 3 29</p><p></p><p> In a real game the Rogue is probably dealing +2 damage while the fighters will be +3 or perhaps +6. Assuming 20 prime ability.</p><p>Rogue 36</p><p>Fighter 1 34.5</p><p>Fighter 2 39</p><p>Fighter 3 35</p><p></p><p> The Rogue is still competitive though, loses the damage race to a great weapon fighter. The fighter doesn't really get a damage boost until level 20 though.</p><p></p><p>Rogue 13, 39.5</p><p>Rogue 15 43</p><p>Rogue 17 46.5</p><p>Rogue 19 50</p><p></p><p> So at most levels the Rogue is actually out damage the fighters, I didn't look at level 6 where the fighters do pick up an extra ASI but overall the pattern is Rogues deal more damage as long as they dual wield. Which most of them should, if you want to run around with a short bow plinking away you're an idiot (shave 4.5 damage off and you often soak up an extra -2 to hit). Now this does ignore things like sometimes the Rogue can't sneak attack but sometimes the fighter has to resort to throwing spears (where the rogue should switch to a shortbow). Something like a hunter ranger will often put both to shame though especially at the lower levels (1-10). </p><p></p><p> That is the math, sure the feats change something but its not the classes fault in that regard the Rogue is the DPS machine. I called the -5/+10 feats out a month or two after 5E landed back in 2014, my opinion on them has not changed.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Zardnaar, post: 7598289, member: 6716779"] D&D players I think like balance, just not as the be all and end all of D&D. Most games also don't go to the high levels so uber wizards aren't such a thing most of the time even in editions where they are broken. Its one thing I noticed with 2E a typical wizard was not as good as the 3E one but was still useful to have around along with a 2E fighter. The designers of 3E seemed big on giving players what they wanted but didn't consider DMs much, 4E tried to fix it but took the game in a way people, thought was worse than 3E. Most of the classes are fine I think with a few exceptions like the Beastmaster and Shadow Monk. The reason Rogues don't deal more damage than fighters was it starts to make fighters pointless especially with dexterity already being so good. So Capn Zapp really needs to rage about two feats in the PHB that enable the warrior types to deal a lot more damage than everyone else. Why 4E was brought up is that you are basically saying we need 4E type mechanics in the game without saying you want 4E. Since 4E was the only D&D that had the defender and striker concept and gave the classes mechanics to match that. Even then I think the ideal 4E party was something like 3 strikers, 1 controller and a leader. If you kill stuff faster its the best debuff yeah? In an earlier post I did provide the math about Rogues damage and some levels they do the most damage, and they are never really that far behind and if you dual wield (which you shoulf do except for some archetypes like mastermind) they tend to break even or be a head slightly. Assuming you can sneak attack (sometimes this is a whiff especially when you win initiative a lot). Rogue level 1 Damage 1d8+ 2d6+ ability mod (dual wield+ sneak attack) avg dmg 14.5 Fighter 1d8+2+ ability mod (duelist) 9.5 (AC will be 3 higher though) Fighter 2 2d6+ ability mod, reroll 1s (great weapon) Avg Damage around 11 IIRC (I'm not good at working out reroll averages) Fighter 3 1d8+ ability mod+ 1d6+ ability mod (dual wield) avg damage 14 This also ignores spike ad on like action surge, rage, smites etc. Dual wielding alos doesn't scale well at higher levels but the Rogue is winning here. Level 3 the Rogues damage can creep up to 18 which is roughly twice he damage of a sword and board fighter. Level 5 big change though. I'll leave the ability score at 16, in a real game it will depend odds are a Rogue will boost dex to 18. Rogue Avg damage 21.5 Fighter 19 Fighter 2 22 Fighter 3 21.5 The duel wielding fighter here is very competitive, in a real game it will deal more damage than the Rogue due to sneak attack whiffing sometimes. Level 7 the Rogues damage scales up to 25, level 9 28.5 so from level 5-10 the Rogue is competitive/dealing the most damage on a round by round basis. Level 11 Rogue 32 Fighter 1 28.5 Fighter 2 33 Fighter 3 29 In a real game the Rogue is probably dealing +2 damage while the fighters will be +3 or perhaps +6. Assuming 20 prime ability. Rogue 36 Fighter 1 34.5 Fighter 2 39 Fighter 3 35 The Rogue is still competitive though, loses the damage race to a great weapon fighter. The fighter doesn't really get a damage boost until level 20 though. Rogue 13, 39.5 Rogue 15 43 Rogue 17 46.5 Rogue 19 50 So at most levels the Rogue is actually out damage the fighters, I didn't look at level 6 where the fighters do pick up an extra ASI but overall the pattern is Rogues deal more damage as long as they dual wield. Which most of them should, if you want to run around with a short bow plinking away you're an idiot (shave 4.5 damage off and you often soak up an extra -2 to hit). Now this does ignore things like sometimes the Rogue can't sneak attack but sometimes the fighter has to resort to throwing spears (where the rogue should switch to a shortbow). Something like a hunter ranger will often put both to shame though especially at the lower levels (1-10). That is the math, sure the feats change something but its not the classes fault in that regard the Rogue is the DPS machine. I called the -5/+10 feats out a month or two after 5E landed back in 2014, my opinion on them has not changed. [/QUOTE]
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