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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
What's so bad about 4th edition? What's so good about other systems?
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<blockquote data-quote="Argyle King" data-source="post: 5611793" data-attributes="member: 58416"><p>Well, let me start by saying what I like about 4th Edition.</p><p></p><p>- I like the new cosmology. I love the mythic feel that it inspires in me. I also love the three split worlds; it helps to make room from creatures which would otherwise feel too similar to certain other creatures. I never had a problem with The Great Wheel, but, I've come to highly prefer the feel and style of the new cosmology.</p><p></p><p>- I like the lessened power curve between levels.</p><p></p><p>- I like the ideals behind encounter design; a group of monsters against a group of PCs being the status quo.</p><p></p><p>- I love the Warlord class.</p><p></p><p>- I like the tighter balance (even if I think there still are some options which are quite obviously not balanced against each other.)</p><p></p><p>- 4th Edition chose to have a more concrete identity.</p><p></p><p>I'm sure there are other things, but that's what immediately comes to mind.</p><p>------------------------------------------------------</p><p></p><p>Now, what bugs me about 4th Edition?</p><p></p><p>- I didn't like the way that the build up to 4th Edition trashed older editions as well as making what I felt were somewhat disparaging remarks toward some play styles.</p><p></p><p>- While I like the concept of skill challenges, I don't like how they sometimes feel like a separate game. Occasionally it can feel as though my character has a 'skill challenge mode,' and an 'encounter mode.' I prefer to have all of my character's abilities available at all times rather than having my choices governed by what mode the game is currently in. Yes, yes, you can most certainly use skills in combat, and you can most certainly use powers in a skill challenge, but there are (IMO) plenty of times when the two parts of the game don't work together as well in play as they do in theory. </p><p></p><p>I've also had experience in which I felt -- as a player -- that I was somewhat railroaded by skill challenges. I wanted to do something or try an idea, but wasn't able to because I was forced into a skill challenge. </p><p></p><p>...great concept; not always a great implementation; don't even get me started on how I feel toward the suggested DCs.</p><p></p><p>- 4th Edition chose to have a more concrete identity. This (as you can see) is both a plus and a minus for me. I think it's great that the 4th Edition team took a more solid stance on what defines the D&D experience, and what style of game they expect 4th Edition to be used for. </p><p></p><p>However, for me personally, that means 4th Edition has also moved away from a style of play I like. Had I felt as though I were more informed about this before buying the original books, that would have been fine, but I felt as though the whole "The game will remain the same" mantra was somewhat misleading. As I've already mentioned; I also felt as though (and sometimes still feel as though) some of the ideals I have about gaming were viewed as badwrongfun. </p><p></p><p>- Grab... well, grab kinda sucks. There's been some effort to remedy this with some character options, but it's still very difficult for me to play one of the character types I enjoy the most.</p><p></p><p>- I don't feel as though the structure of the mechanics really supports the 'Points of Light' idea (which I highly enjoyed reading about in the 4E previews.) Many people will argue that there's little or no connection between mechanics and fluff. Personally, I disagree. I feel that certain mechanical structures are better (or worse) for certain feels. </p><p></p><p>If I take a 4th Edition adventure, and run it using GURPS mechanics, the fluff will be exactly the same, but the different mechanics will still put a spin on how it feels. Certain mechanics will better highlight certain things while putting less emphasis on others; this is true for both systems, even if I'm running the exact same adventure fluff. </p><p></p><p>Again, for me, this is a problem for me because I felt somewhat mislead. The previews of the game made me think it would be one thing. The way the game actually turned out to work in actual play was something quite different. I remember participating in one of the 'Build A City' threads over on the WoTC boards during the switch to 4E; the thread died after we realized that what we had built (based on assumptions of what style of game 4E would be) didn't really work with 4th Edition, and we had to start a new thread to start over -- building fluff that was easier to support with the mechanics given.</p><p></p><p>- DDi... what can I say? This <em>should</em> be something I want. I had high hopes for it. As it stands, I don't think it's something I'll ever want.</p><p></p><p>I'm sure there's more, but this is what immediately comes to mind.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Argyle King, post: 5611793, member: 58416"] Well, let me start by saying what I like about 4th Edition. - I like the new cosmology. I love the mythic feel that it inspires in me. I also love the three split worlds; it helps to make room from creatures which would otherwise feel too similar to certain other creatures. I never had a problem with The Great Wheel, but, I've come to highly prefer the feel and style of the new cosmology. - I like the lessened power curve between levels. - I like the ideals behind encounter design; a group of monsters against a group of PCs being the status quo. - I love the Warlord class. - I like the tighter balance (even if I think there still are some options which are quite obviously not balanced against each other.) - 4th Edition chose to have a more concrete identity. I'm sure there are other things, but that's what immediately comes to mind. ------------------------------------------------------ Now, what bugs me about 4th Edition? - I didn't like the way that the build up to 4th Edition trashed older editions as well as making what I felt were somewhat disparaging remarks toward some play styles. - While I like the concept of skill challenges, I don't like how they sometimes feel like a separate game. Occasionally it can feel as though my character has a 'skill challenge mode,' and an 'encounter mode.' I prefer to have all of my character's abilities available at all times rather than having my choices governed by what mode the game is currently in. Yes, yes, you can most certainly use skills in combat, and you can most certainly use powers in a skill challenge, but there are (IMO) plenty of times when the two parts of the game don't work together as well in play as they do in theory. I've also had experience in which I felt -- as a player -- that I was somewhat railroaded by skill challenges. I wanted to do something or try an idea, but wasn't able to because I was forced into a skill challenge. ...great concept; not always a great implementation; don't even get me started on how I feel toward the suggested DCs. - 4th Edition chose to have a more concrete identity. This (as you can see) is both a plus and a minus for me. I think it's great that the 4th Edition team took a more solid stance on what defines the D&D experience, and what style of game they expect 4th Edition to be used for. However, for me personally, that means 4th Edition has also moved away from a style of play I like. Had I felt as though I were more informed about this before buying the original books, that would have been fine, but I felt as though the whole "The game will remain the same" mantra was somewhat misleading. As I've already mentioned; I also felt as though (and sometimes still feel as though) some of the ideals I have about gaming were viewed as badwrongfun. - Grab... well, grab kinda sucks. There's been some effort to remedy this with some character options, but it's still very difficult for me to play one of the character types I enjoy the most. - I don't feel as though the structure of the mechanics really supports the 'Points of Light' idea (which I highly enjoyed reading about in the 4E previews.) Many people will argue that there's little or no connection between mechanics and fluff. Personally, I disagree. I feel that certain mechanical structures are better (or worse) for certain feels. If I take a 4th Edition adventure, and run it using GURPS mechanics, the fluff will be exactly the same, but the different mechanics will still put a spin on how it feels. Certain mechanics will better highlight certain things while putting less emphasis on others; this is true for both systems, even if I'm running the exact same adventure fluff. Again, for me, this is a problem for me because I felt somewhat mislead. The previews of the game made me think it would be one thing. The way the game actually turned out to work in actual play was something quite different. I remember participating in one of the 'Build A City' threads over on the WoTC boards during the switch to 4E; the thread died after we realized that what we had built (based on assumptions of what style of game 4E would be) didn't really work with 4th Edition, and we had to start a new thread to start over -- building fluff that was easier to support with the mechanics given. - DDi... what can I say? This [I]should[/I] be something I want. I had high hopes for it. As it stands, I don't think it's something I'll ever want. I'm sure there's more, but this is what immediately comes to mind. [/QUOTE]
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