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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
What's so bad about 4th edition? What's so good about other systems?
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<blockquote data-quote="Stormonu" data-source="post: 5611843" data-attributes="member: 52734"><p>I've been watching from the sidelines, but it looks like Essentials is going from a side product to get new players to becoming the core point of entry for 4E. I party base this on the fact that the PHB1, DMG1 & MM1 are no longer being printed - its expected you will now enter 4E through the Rules Compendium & DM's kit, Monster Vault and Heroes of... books.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The more systems one play, the more chance there is to see which system does what better. 4E pretty much put all it's eggs in one basket - and there were enough people that didn't agree with that arrangement that it split the community somewhat. 2E had a similar image problem; a lot of folks I knew who abandoned it for another RPG went to White Wolf products back in the 90's.</p><p></p><p>As for an omen, I don't think by a long shot WotC is doomed, but they need to sit up and take notice. Personally, I compare it to the console market several years ago; When Playstation 3 came out, they proclaimed they'd won the the console war only to have the Wii rocket past them and Xbox 360 gain huge numbers as their own console fumbled along for a few years. Yes, PS3 is doing decently now but if they hadn't course corrected, they'd gone the way of Sega or Atari game consoles.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>WotC's handling has been schizophrenic. I think initially they had were overconfident that because they were the leader, everyone would simply fall in live and convert when the time came. They felt they didn't need or want anyone else producing product for them, so they could keep profits to themselves. </p><p></p><p>It took them a bit to catch on that a not-insignificant number of people either didn't follow or shortly thereafter decided to hop off the bandwagon when they didn't like what they were getting into. The problems with the digital tools didn't help either, and several 3rd party publishers were able to tap into enough demand to keep the old system "patched up" and running.</p><p></p><p>WotC's since been scrambling to figure "what went wrong" and coax folks back into their camp (witness Mearl's articles aimed at "healing" the community split). I get the feeling that's not going well as the D&D brand manager was recently laid off. I don't know how well essentials is doing to bring new folks into the fold, but I imagine it's ticked at least a few people off who aren't happy "buying the game" all over again in the new line.</p><p></p><p>As for me, what turned me off to 4E was primarily the way it handled combat (there's other things, but this is the prime offender). Now, I've always loved a good combat or two in my games, but every 4E battle felt like a DDM tournament match. There was just too much time invested in the seemingly endless string of combats (Thank you, Keep on the Shadowfell) linked together by the barest threads of story. </p><p></p><p>I also didn't feel like I was stepping into a fantasy world, I felt more like I was refereeing some sort of fantasy-themed sporting event. That was pretty annoying as well.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Stormonu, post: 5611843, member: 52734"] I've been watching from the sidelines, but it looks like Essentials is going from a side product to get new players to becoming the core point of entry for 4E. I party base this on the fact that the PHB1, DMG1 & MM1 are no longer being printed - its expected you will now enter 4E through the Rules Compendium & DM's kit, Monster Vault and Heroes of... books. The more systems one play, the more chance there is to see which system does what better. 4E pretty much put all it's eggs in one basket - and there were enough people that didn't agree with that arrangement that it split the community somewhat. 2E had a similar image problem; a lot of folks I knew who abandoned it for another RPG went to White Wolf products back in the 90's. As for an omen, I don't think by a long shot WotC is doomed, but they need to sit up and take notice. Personally, I compare it to the console market several years ago; When Playstation 3 came out, they proclaimed they'd won the the console war only to have the Wii rocket past them and Xbox 360 gain huge numbers as their own console fumbled along for a few years. Yes, PS3 is doing decently now but if they hadn't course corrected, they'd gone the way of Sega or Atari game consoles. WotC's handling has been schizophrenic. I think initially they had were overconfident that because they were the leader, everyone would simply fall in live and convert when the time came. They felt they didn't need or want anyone else producing product for them, so they could keep profits to themselves. It took them a bit to catch on that a not-insignificant number of people either didn't follow or shortly thereafter decided to hop off the bandwagon when they didn't like what they were getting into. The problems with the digital tools didn't help either, and several 3rd party publishers were able to tap into enough demand to keep the old system "patched up" and running. WotC's since been scrambling to figure "what went wrong" and coax folks back into their camp (witness Mearl's articles aimed at "healing" the community split). I get the feeling that's not going well as the D&D brand manager was recently laid off. I don't know how well essentials is doing to bring new folks into the fold, but I imagine it's ticked at least a few people off who aren't happy "buying the game" all over again in the new line. As for me, what turned me off to 4E was primarily the way it handled combat (there's other things, but this is the prime offender). Now, I've always loved a good combat or two in my games, but every 4E battle felt like a DDM tournament match. There was just too much time invested in the seemingly endless string of combats (Thank you, Keep on the Shadowfell) linked together by the barest threads of story. I also didn't feel like I was stepping into a fantasy world, I felt more like I was refereeing some sort of fantasy-themed sporting event. That was pretty annoying as well. [/QUOTE]
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