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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
What's so bad about 4th edition? What's so good about other systems?
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<blockquote data-quote="Gardukk" data-source="post: 5611879" data-attributes="member: 6678821"><p>I started playing Fourth Edition right around the time it came out and have been playing it weekly (With a few hiccups) ever since. When it first came out I was ecstatic, and loved just about everything it had to offer. It's three years later and I'm not so sure it's really as perfect as I thought it was at the time. Off the top of my head, there are a few points I can think of that have been bothering me quite a bit as of late:</p><p></p><p>- Skill Challenges. This is one of the first things that started to stick out as I played 4th Edition, and I started disliking it relatively early in my time playing the system. One of the strongest points of Tabletop RPGs is the concept of "Emergent Gameplay" - being able to solve any given problem in a potentially infinite number of ways. This can be accomplished in Tabletop RPGs (And some video games, most notably Deus Ex) due to the structureless nature of the problems given. "There's a chasm. You need to get across the chasm. GO!" Taking away this possibility and replacing it with, "Alright, if you can get 6 skill checks you can get across the chasm," ends up being harmful to the aspect of Emergent Gameplay and in turn harmful to the game's nature as a Tabletop RPG. </p><p></p><p>- Broken Math. This is another one that seems to be a fairly common complaint in that, at least at launch, the game's math simply didn't work right. This is particularly true in the paragon and epic tiers wherein monsters become nearly unhittable because of how high their defenses get. With the release of the PHB2 this problem was solved by implementing the Weapon and Implement Expertise feats, which were more-or-less required to build a relatively effective character. What this results in is essentially being required to take certain feats because if you don't, your character will probably not be effective, especially in later tiers. Granted, this is a bit less of the case with more recent content, but it's still something that bothers me.</p><p></p><p>- Option Bloat. This is a bit of a personal gripe, but in terms of feats, powers, and especially magic items, there's <em>way too many options.</em> It's a little disheartening to look at the character builder to choose magic items and see something like nine <em>thousand</em> choices. This wouldn't be so bad if 95% of the options presented weren't either terrible or intended for a very specific character type, and the other 5% being just objectively better than everything else. This sort of applies to feats and powers, too, but it's mostly a gripe with Magic Items.</p><p></p><p>- The Essentials Books Look Like They were Designed by a Team of Chimps. This is even more of a personal issue, but I cannot stand trying to read Essentials Classes. They had a very consistent layout for Fourth Edition classes that made looking up content incredibly easy and fast, and replaced it with the Esentials format wherein certain entries (Like the "Ability Scores" section under each class) are printed multiple times in a book for each class. On top of that, there's the fact that the "Core" book was split into two books, with <em>entire chapters </em>being reprinted between the two releases. It all seems like a feeble attempt to pad out the page count of the books without actually providing more content. It seems like a really shifty and lazy design choice, and ultimately has discouraged me from actually giving the classes a shot.</p><p></p><p>That all being said, Fourth Edition is by no means a bad system and I still love it to death. For example, I really like the more tactical approach that they took in terms of combat, along with how much easier it is to DM than, say, Third Edition. The monster format is <em>fantastic.</em></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Gardukk, post: 5611879, member: 6678821"] I started playing Fourth Edition right around the time it came out and have been playing it weekly (With a few hiccups) ever since. When it first came out I was ecstatic, and loved just about everything it had to offer. It's three years later and I'm not so sure it's really as perfect as I thought it was at the time. Off the top of my head, there are a few points I can think of that have been bothering me quite a bit as of late: - Skill Challenges. This is one of the first things that started to stick out as I played 4th Edition, and I started disliking it relatively early in my time playing the system. One of the strongest points of Tabletop RPGs is the concept of "Emergent Gameplay" - being able to solve any given problem in a potentially infinite number of ways. This can be accomplished in Tabletop RPGs (And some video games, most notably Deus Ex) due to the structureless nature of the problems given. "There's a chasm. You need to get across the chasm. GO!" Taking away this possibility and replacing it with, "Alright, if you can get 6 skill checks you can get across the chasm," ends up being harmful to the aspect of Emergent Gameplay and in turn harmful to the game's nature as a Tabletop RPG. - Broken Math. This is another one that seems to be a fairly common complaint in that, at least at launch, the game's math simply didn't work right. This is particularly true in the paragon and epic tiers wherein monsters become nearly unhittable because of how high their defenses get. With the release of the PHB2 this problem was solved by implementing the Weapon and Implement Expertise feats, which were more-or-less required to build a relatively effective character. What this results in is essentially being required to take certain feats because if you don't, your character will probably not be effective, especially in later tiers. Granted, this is a bit less of the case with more recent content, but it's still something that bothers me. - Option Bloat. This is a bit of a personal gripe, but in terms of feats, powers, and especially magic items, there's [I]way too many options.[/I] It's a little disheartening to look at the character builder to choose magic items and see something like nine [I]thousand[/I] choices. This wouldn't be so bad if 95% of the options presented weren't either terrible or intended for a very specific character type, and the other 5% being just objectively better than everything else. This sort of applies to feats and powers, too, but it's mostly a gripe with Magic Items. - The Essentials Books Look Like They were Designed by a Team of Chimps. This is even more of a personal issue, but I cannot stand trying to read Essentials Classes. They had a very consistent layout for Fourth Edition classes that made looking up content incredibly easy and fast, and replaced it with the Esentials format wherein certain entries (Like the "Ability Scores" section under each class) are printed multiple times in a book for each class. On top of that, there's the fact that the "Core" book was split into two books, with [I]entire chapters [/I]being reprinted between the two releases. It all seems like a feeble attempt to pad out the page count of the books without actually providing more content. It seems like a really shifty and lazy design choice, and ultimately has discouraged me from actually giving the classes a shot. That all being said, Fourth Edition is by no means a bad system and I still love it to death. For example, I really like the more tactical approach that they took in terms of combat, along with how much easier it is to DM than, say, Third Edition. The monster format is [I]fantastic.[/I] [/QUOTE]
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