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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
What's so bad about 4th edition? What's so good about other systems?
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<blockquote data-quote="delericho" data-source="post: 5611942" data-attributes="member: 22424"><p>4e doesn't suck. I've had quite a bit of fun playing it.</p><p></p><p>But what's so bad about 4e?</p><p></p><p>- Combat grind. An incidental, run of the mill combat against a bunch of kobolds should not last 40 minutes. A minor combat to set the scene and tone for the adventure should not take more than two and a half hours out of a three-hour game session.</p><p></p><p>Both of these are real examples from WotC published adventures (Kobold Hall and Tomb of Horrors, respectively), and in both cases they quickly degenerated into tedious slug-fests where both sides spammed at-wills to whittle away the others hit points.</p><p></p><p>- The constant stream of ongoing updates. I've complained about this on other threads, and don't want to rehash it. Suffice to say, I absolutely hate it.</p><p></p><p>- There are a few (very few) areas in the rules that just break my head.</p><p></p><p>But for me, the biggest thing that's wrong with 4e is that <strong>it was just such a missed opportunity</strong>. I was ready for 4e. I was well aware of the weaknesses with 3e, especially at high levels. And much of what came out of WotC in the early days was really promising - an expanded 'sweet spot', a proper acknowledgement of play across all levels, a removal of a lot of excess baggage from monsters (particularly minor spell-like abilities that would almost never be used), and in particular a simplification of the DM's job.</p><p></p><p>Yes, 4e should have been great.</p><p></p><p>But, overall, it's just not. I've had fun playing it, yes, but I've had fun with almost every system I've played (including some really bad ones). It has some <em>really</em> good points, but it also has some glaring weaknesses.</p><p></p><p>All in all, and on balance, it's just not an improvement on core-rule-only 3.5e (for me).</p><p></p><p>And it could have been, and it should have been. And that's what's wrong with 4e.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="delericho, post: 5611942, member: 22424"] 4e doesn't suck. I've had quite a bit of fun playing it. But what's so bad about 4e? - Combat grind. An incidental, run of the mill combat against a bunch of kobolds should not last 40 minutes. A minor combat to set the scene and tone for the adventure should not take more than two and a half hours out of a three-hour game session. Both of these are real examples from WotC published adventures (Kobold Hall and Tomb of Horrors, respectively), and in both cases they quickly degenerated into tedious slug-fests where both sides spammed at-wills to whittle away the others hit points. - The constant stream of ongoing updates. I've complained about this on other threads, and don't want to rehash it. Suffice to say, I absolutely hate it. - There are a few (very few) areas in the rules that just break my head. But for me, the biggest thing that's wrong with 4e is that [b]it was just such a missed opportunity[/b]. I was ready for 4e. I was well aware of the weaknesses with 3e, especially at high levels. And much of what came out of WotC in the early days was really promising - an expanded 'sweet spot', a proper acknowledgement of play across all levels, a removal of a lot of excess baggage from monsters (particularly minor spell-like abilities that would almost never be used), and in particular a simplification of the DM's job. Yes, 4e should have been great. But, overall, it's just not. I've had fun playing it, yes, but I've had fun with almost every system I've played (including some really bad ones). It has some [i]really[/i] good points, but it also has some glaring weaknesses. All in all, and on balance, it's just not an improvement on core-rule-only 3.5e (for me). And it could have been, and it should have been. And that's what's wrong with 4e. [/QUOTE]
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